Good/Functional design

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schwarzgrau
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by schwarzgrau » 17 Mar 2016, 10:34

Absolutely. Cut and Paste needs to be switched and for me maybe even Save and Load. Otherwise the Box around the circle could suggest a digital file, so maybe this could make sense. I guess such simple icons could lead to confusion, till they established itself, but I really like the clean simplicity of them.
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ematecki
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by ematecki » 17 Mar 2016, 11:03

To me :
- New should maybe be filled ? (filled dot = object/document)

- Load and Save have the arrow in the right way, however they should have a black dot at the "empty" end of arrow.
That way they means something like "get/put the object from/into the box", i.e. the disk.
Sure they would look cluttered...

- Cut icon means Copy (... just because thats the one left :-P )
- Copy icon means Paste (two black dots means I now have two times the object).
- Paste icon means Cut (the dotted line means the object has vanished)
Even then, the black dot representing the object in the clipboard should be somewhat different from the one representing the object in the 'document'. For Cut/Copy that would be the lower one, for Paste the upper one.
Maybe smaller ? Maybe not round ?

my 2 cents...
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by momo » 18 Mar 2016, 02:07

ten_zero wrote:
schwarzgrau wrote: Oh by the way I found something regarding the "floppy-icon" a few days ago.

Image

Still not really intuitive, but at least some other way of doing it.
A simply good design, however there is a perception gap.
In this case I will confuse between "cut" and "paste" :
  • "cut" icon for "Black & white substantial object ; means make black circle and place over white cirle" (misinterpret to paste)
    "paste" icon for "break lined circle and solid lined circl ; means move solid object from vanish circled place" (misinterpret to cut)
  • For example, let us look at from a different point of view.
    The attachment hieroglyph_kanji.jpg is no longer available
The essence of what good design is: chinese characters. It hasnt changed in a few thousand years, unlike the floppy disk icon and it fit in small square. Icon are limited to time and space but text is less so.

The door exemple show one thing clearly no matter the design of the door the handle is always at the same spot. The problem in TVpaint is sometime that handles are everywhere. The consistancy within the application needs to be clearly maintain and the interface decluttered. There has already been some good improvement in tvp11, but:

-The light bulb icon and the magnifying glass icon, are found it in two location, but have different functions yet they still are dealing with the same thing.
-The same applies to the "zoom windows" in a small area you have two identical icons(downward triangle and the horizontal line) but all do something different.
TVpaintButtonBar.JPG
TVpaintButtonBar.JPG (11.91 KiB) Viewed 16449 times
-To access the remote control panel windows->animation->remote( why is it not called remote control?)
-The menu bar can be put into a draw like a panel yet a panel cannot be put into a bar. Again same but not the same.
- An entire line could be saved to declutter the interface if you put the option "Background" and "Start frame" into the preferences settings and move "notes", "sound" and "color group" down and remove the line of numbers which is already seen on the top anyway. These are not things that need to be changed constantly. Also the merge layer menu is only available through the tiny icon on the left yet all the other icon regarding a layer option are on the right or in a drop down menu.
TVpaint.JPG
-The time line in the zoom window is not necessary since these option are already available through the remote control and the clip time line.
-Project infos are displayed everywhere at the top and at the bottom. One is enough.

When first using the software one cannot associate one concept with one image. Since the same image in a different location means something different. The logic behing the placing of things should be easily understandable and therefore it will be easy to remember. Not to mention if people who do not speak french/english use this software it is even harder to learn. There is nothing worst then button hunting when there is a deadline and things need to get done.

Like that door Tvpaint can be very frustrating to use at times but when it opens it works beautifully. (I guess this became a bit of a "feature request")

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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by ten_zero » 18 Mar 2016, 03:27

momo wrote: When first using the software one cannot associate one concept with one image. Since the same image in a different location means something different. The logic behing the placing of things should be easily understandable and therefore it will be easy to remember. Not to mention if people who do not speak french/english use this software it is even harder to learn. There is nothing worst then button hunting when there is a deadline and things need to get done.
vote +1.
That is why i always set baloon help and UI language : Japanese because for one or two Kanji / Kana character works as icon.
Sometimes return English or Français UI for compare terms gap like "peg hole" as "hole of tap" :)

In here A TVPaint power user from China posted some full translated screenshot in Mandarin Chinese by their own service.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=541" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by schwarzgrau » 18 Mar 2016, 08:34

momo has some good points
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by Fabrice » 18 Mar 2016, 15:29

ot to mention if people who do not speak french/english use this software it is even harder to learn.
no : japanese people does learn TVPaint faster than any other people in Europe or US.
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by momo » 21 Mar 2016, 13:20

Yes maybe but I was more thinking about the korean users.

Sometimes it feels you guys are very sensitive to certain feedbacks. I mention these thing hoping that it would help you guys to push your software even further.
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Fabrice
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by Fabrice » 22 Mar 2016, 09:35

Yes maybe but I was more thinking about the korean users.
Korean does learn it fast too !
Just look at all Korean people doing cinematics at Blizzard !
Sometimes it feels you guys are very sensitive to certain feedbacks.
It can happen when someone generalize his/her own feeling about interface, features or whatever... to a whole country or to several ones, or to a group of people.
IMO, global generalization doesn't bring anything interesting in a discussion.
I mention these thing hoping that it would help you guys to push your software even further.
It helps, believe me ! But when someone says something wrong, we have to say it is.
Otherwise any reader could imagine anything and himself/herself report wrong informations.
(for exemple : How many time have we heard/read that TVPaint is mostly used in France, while it's completely wrong ...)

That said, there are interesting stuff in your post that (like any other feedback post) that will be archived, discussed and probably improved later.
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schwarzgrau
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by schwarzgrau » 22 Mar 2016, 09:43

Fabrice wrote: (for exemple : How many time have we heard/read that TVPaint is mostly used in France, while it's completely wrong ...)
Where is it mostly used? Just out of curiosity.
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Fabrice
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by Fabrice » 22 Mar 2016, 10:40

1/3 in Europe + Russia
1/3 In USA / Canada + South America
1/3 in Asia + Australia

I'm not allowed to give more details.
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by momo » 22 Mar 2016, 11:59

Fabrice wrote: It can happen when someone generalize his/her own feeling about interface, features or whatever... to a whole country or to several ones, or to a group of people.
IMO, global generalization doesn't bring anything interesting in a discussion.
Good point never thought of this.

I guess I tend to generalize to a group of people what I noticed came up in every conversation I had about TVpaint with people using it in animation. But still is pointless as you wrote.
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by Fabrice » 22 Mar 2016, 14:56

it's not pointless. It can be done, I can't blame you for that.
But try to let us know you have this feedback with the people working around you.
In that way, we can check if it comes from other groups of people too (and/or from other locations), then finally decide how fast each option will evolve in the software.
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by momo » 23 Mar 2016, 02:43

It is important to specify: in my case I was simply mentionning the language problem I noticed here in Korea. Very few people are able to use the english they learn at school.

The unfortunate result is that people will just refer to guides like this one:

http://cafe.naver.com/keyfle/8119

for something as simple as setting a shortcut.

Instead of using the user manuel which is much better. I guess depending on how many user there are you guys decide in which language to translate the manual.
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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by ten_zero » 23 Mar 2016, 04:16

Gentlemen, I suggest you should be sprit or move an new topic about "language barrier" or "How difficult thing to do make multilingal support".

TVPaint technical manual has many terms gap even Français and English.
When the tems could not find the word in brain dictionary, I propose that consult a Français - English or your native language dictionary.
Tell the truth I spend with NHK foreign language larning radio program, FF (containing Apple OS X Dictionary.app) /Larrousse EF iOS app and Français-my native language dictionaries ; all for TVPaint Animation.
Spoiler : out of record :
Honestly If I take exam for TOEIC, I will guess under 400 ; in case of EU, that means CEFR/CEF Deutsch, Español, Français and Italiano level "A1" / IELTS band 2 means "an Intermittent User".
Someyone sensed my post under "edited" status too much for fix mistake in English grammar.

I often feel TVPaint Animation docments as Mr. Spock written.
I remember some seniour member said "your English like grade school children" and made trouble by language barrier.
Even so I have a proud that never use mechanical translate service for my post : "Système D" impossible pas à moi dictionnaire.

If some kind person present me foreign books, I would request "Dictionnaire Hachette Benjamin 5-8 ans" and "Le Robert Benjamin ( Collectif )" to learn "how to explain terms and sentense plainly in Français like Collins Cobuild in Great Britain".

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Re: Good/Functional design

Post by Fabrice » 23 Mar 2016, 08:22

momo wrote:It is important to specify: in my case I was simply mentionning the language problem I noticed here in Korea.
That's interesting.
momo wrote:Very few people are able to use the english they learn at school.
The unfortunate result is that people will just refer to guides like this one:
http://cafe.naver.com/keyfle/8119

for something as simple as setting a shortcut.

Instead of using the user manuel which is much better. I guess depending on how many user there are you guys decide in which language to translate the manual.
Korean translation is stll in my mind. But I have no expected time of accomplishment.
Are you living in Korea ? We use to visit your country regulary, so maybe can we visit you ?
Fabrice Debarge

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