Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

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Joost
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Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Joost » 01 Jun 2021, 09:29

Hi,

In TVP 10 we were able to draw on a layer when the layer stencil was enabled. In my opinion this was the way it should be.
In TVPaint 11 this was changed. Every time I draw on a layer where the stencil is enabled, I get this popup that I can't draw on it. Why?

When I'm explaining the stencil function to interns I always tell them: " You can draw on the pixels of all layers where the stencil in enabled"
Now I have to say: "...Except on the layer you are currently working on...." Confusion!

I really don't understand the reason behind this change. I heard that it should be clearer for new users. But in my opinion it's more confusing.

Can someone explain why the new method is better.

My request: change it back to the way it was! Thanks! :)
Mac OS 11.2.3, Mac mini 2020 Apple M1 chip, 16GB RAM, Wacom Cintiq 27 QHD (no touch), Wacom Driver 6.3.42-1.
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Peter Wassink
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Peter Wassink » 01 Jun 2021, 14:26

why not make the behaviour optional in the preference panel.

This way it can be left OFF as a default for new users,
and the rest of us can switch it to ON in the preferences.
Peter Wassink - 2D animator
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• laptop: Win10/64 Pro - i7-4600@2.1 GHz - 16Gb RAM

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Joost
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Joost » 01 Jun 2021, 15:04

That would be a good option! :D

However, I don't see why new users would be better of without the ability of drawing on a layer with stencil enabled?

Can anybody explain why this would be better for new users? I don't see it...
Mac OS 11.2.3, Mac mini 2020 Apple M1 chip, 16GB RAM, Wacom Cintiq 27 QHD (no touch), Wacom Driver 6.3.42-1.
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Joost
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Joost » 04 Jun 2021, 11:40

Joost wrote:
01 Jun 2021, 15:04
However, I don't see why new users would be better of without the ability of drawing on a layer with stencil enabled?

Can anybody explain why this would be better for new users? I don't see it...
Is there anybody who can answer this question? I really would like to understand the other perspective...

Thanks!
Mac OS 11.2.3, Mac mini 2020 Apple M1 chip, 16GB RAM, Wacom Cintiq 27 QHD (no touch), Wacom Driver 6.3.42-1.
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Peter Wassink
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Peter Wassink » 08 Jun 2021, 09:43

Its because of 'reasons"
this is the only offcial reason icould find:
"The behaviour of the mask in the layer was changed because it created a lot of issues for the users."
Not sure, but i imagine the thought is that this might potentially be one extra thing a first time user could get stuck on.

It being in the;" i'm trying to draw but nothing happens" category of beginners issues.

But i agree with you that if you keep the behavior logic, users will quickly learn and understand why tvpaint behaves the way it does.
making exceptions to logic to accommodate first time users is not a good idea.

Also trying to please first time users that would otherwise be put off of TVPaint because of this seems pointless as these are most likely not your target users anyway.



Ha... after writing all that, i checked the behavior again in tvpaint and its off course actually the other way round.
In fact the way it works now is: " i'm trying to draw but nothing happens" AND this makes no sense.

So sorry Joost this function does not make sense to me either, and i cannot explain it!
And now i'm also curious what is meant with: 'lot of issues"
Peter Wassink - 2D animator
• PC: Win10/64 Home - Xeon Quadcore E5410@2.33Ghz - 12Gb RAM
• laptop: Win10/64 Pro - i7-4600@2.1 GHz - 16Gb RAM

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Joost
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Joost » 08 Jun 2021, 10:52

Thanks Peter!

So please TVPaint team, would it be possible to hear your reaction about this?

And can it be changed back to the way it was in TVP10?

Thanks!
Mac OS 11.2.3, Mac mini 2020 Apple M1 chip, 16GB RAM, Wacom Cintiq 27 QHD (no touch), Wacom Driver 6.3.42-1.
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Thierry
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Thierry » 08 Jun 2021, 14:32

Well, err... I hope it doesn't come out as me deflecting the issue, but I don't know why it was done.
The people who decided to change the behaviour from v10 to v11 left the company and I was not privy to the reason they changed it :(

Regardless, we'll take a look with Xavier to see if it is possible to change it back.
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Joost
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Joost » 09 Jun 2021, 07:52

LOL

Thanks Thierry! :D

Or another option like Peter suggested: Make it an checkbox option in the preferences.
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Thierry
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Thierry » 09 Jun 2021, 10:15

Joost wrote:
09 Jun 2021, 07:52
Or another option like Peter suggested: Make it an checkbox option in the preferences.
Yes, that's how I would prefer it to be done as well, as it would not confuse users who did not know how it worked in v10.
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Re: Be able to draw on layer when stencil is enabled

Post by Svengali » 09 Jun 2021, 11:40

Thierry wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 14:32
Well, err... I hope it doesn't come out as me deflecting the issue, but I don't know why it was done.
The people who decided to change the behaviour from v10 to v11 left the company and I was not privy to the reason they changed it :(

Regardless, we'll take a look with Xavier to see if it is possible to change it back.
Thierry,

To be perfectly honest, this topic was discussed a number of times when TVPaint 11 was still in BETA pre-release, a few years ago.

In an earlier thread by Joost (which he may have forgotten he posted) I posted my side of the BETA discussion (where years ago I objected to the change in the stencil/mask during BETA testing).

At David's suggestion, I reposted the explanation in that thread, which is a kind of mini-history of Fabrice's and Elodie's reasoning on the removal of the stencil/mask option for the current layer, ultimately, an argument I lost.

Anyway, I think the best solution for all users might be:
1. Add a setting in PREFERENCES that defaults to the TVPaint 11's stencil/mask prohibition being on as it is now...
2. Modify the popup message that starts out saying "You cannot draw on this layer because the stencil function is enabled" AND in addition, provide the artist with the option to have the stencil/mask turned off in PREFERENCES by pressing the OFF button.

+1 for changing it back!!!
sven
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