TVP compared to Retas

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ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 05 Nov 2015, 07:52

Here is some compare thresholding color images :
01.jpg
02.jpg
03.jpg

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Fabrice
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Fabrice » 05 Nov 2015, 22:44

we can do a FX that would give the same results (for very close to ... ) OLM. Not a super big deal since the paint bucket is now with AA. :)
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ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 06 Nov 2015, 03:32

Fabrice wrote:we can do a FX that would give the same results (for very close to ... ) OLM. Not a super big deal since the paint bucket is now with AA. :)
Monsieur, the Far Eastern market require not only text but also images or movie to compare.
"We would like to know how TVP to make impression efficiency than RETAS or CSP Anime function. What are you able to do for Japanim ? " ...

For example I suggest to make a Tips about FIX "Sketch Panerl RGB - Erace XXX" for Japanim ; how to customize and using multiple FX - "Color Keyer".

Sketch Panerl RGB - Erace XXX
  • 01.jpg
    02.jpg
    03.jpg
    04.jpg
Multiple FX - Color Keyer
  • 05.jpg
    06.jpg
    07.jpg
    08.jpg

Jet
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Jet » 09 Nov 2015, 06:07

Great post tan_zero, thanks!

Was difficult to find an example, but the guy in this video is tracing a scene from Legend of Korra in Photoshop using the pencil tool, so it's all done in monochrome and he even uses the Japanese color separation line technique already elaborated on in this thread, he applies OLM Smoothing at the end during composite in After Effects. It goes to show even an amateur can use these things to get a convincing aesthetic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VB37EwLUW4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



And it goes to show it doesn't matter if you work with anti-aliasing or monochrome for this style of animation, when it is composited it will look the same either way. Anti-aliasing of course is essential for textured media, but that's not what we're talking about in this thread, TVPaint already handles that beautifully, we just need it to handle other aspects too.
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Fabrice
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Fabrice » 09 Nov 2015, 09:08

Monsieur, the Far Eastern market require not only text but also images or movie to compare.
"We would like to know how TVP to make impression efficiency than RETAS or CSP Anime function. What are you able to do for Japanim ? " ...
You always doubt about us ... thanks. :roll:
Fortunately, Eastern market is more and more noticing all the improvements we are making specifically for them. :)
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ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 09 Nov 2015, 11:53

Fabrice wrote:You always doubt about us ... thanks. :roll:
I know well the "non-obedient stranger" who prefer "Deux suretes valent mieux qu'une" over "Ce qui est fait n'est plus à faire".

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Elodie
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Elodie » 09 Nov 2015, 13:35

Fabrice, I don't think Ten_Zero-san doubts about us.
I think she just gave an advice about people from Japanim who need to see concrete and visual example rather than hearing words, which make sense, since we always worked that way :)
Spoiler : Out of topic about French idioms and habits :
I take the liberty to underline 2 things :
1st, the idiom is "Deux précautions valent mieux qu'une".
2nd, in French, starting a sentence by "Monsieur (or Madame)" only may mean 2 things : whether you don't know each other and this a very formal way to start a letter - bank, insurance, etc - or you know each other but you use a very distant way to talk - which is rude).
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ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 09 Nov 2015, 14:37

1st, the idiom is "Deux précautions valent mieux qu'une".
  • Thank you for the point, I updated the knowledge in my brain.
2nd, in French,
Spoiler : about "out of topic" :
  • It is too difficult to explain you about language & association barrier between with in/out of family, calls "culture gap".
    In this place, when the Far Eastern people call "Monsieur / Madame / Mademoiselle", it including with courteous regarded with deep affection than "first name + -san".

    If anything, "Call the first name by someone who is not your kith and kin" is the worst social taboo. Especially the person is married.

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Elodie
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Elodie » 09 Nov 2015, 14:58

Efforts to close cultural gaps must be done on both sides. :wink:
I know - a little - Japanese customs regarding courtesy and I also know you did not want to be rude : that's why I explained you why it sounds despising for a French to be called "Monsieur" when such a formal word is not necessary. (Yes, sometimes in French, being too much polite can be impolite ! :mrgreen: )

Well, let's close this out of topic (feel free to chat with me with private message). I propose to focus on TVPaint / Retas comparison again :)
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Jet » 09 Nov 2015, 21:05

Fabrice wrote:Fortunately, Eastern market is more and more noticing all the improvements we are making specifically for them
It's not just about the Japan and Korean market though, it's about competing with those markets. How do we win a pitch to a producer or investor that as a classical animaton studio we're able to stay on budget compared to a Japanese classical animation studio? It's hard enough competing with CGI and vector and lower wages. Warner Bros lately has been using an anime aesthetic in their superhero cartoons contrary to their American comic counterparts, but where is it all animated, and why? TVPaint pipeline scene test (7hr), Retas Studio pipeline scene test (3hr), the time saved is during paint mostly.

Justice League (paperless):
Image

Gurren Lagann (analog):
Image

I think the quickest way of describing all this, is can you develop TVPaint to do the following in a single click? (we want the right side of the square to be colored orange, the blue lines represent exactly where we want the boundary to be and we'd like to discard them since after the fill they are useless and a waste of memory)

Image

We also need a 'fill unfilled area' tool like what is found in PaintMan and CSP. Perhaps CTG can take care of this, but we need it incorporated into the above.

Image

TVP is exceptional at the paperless workflow but lags behind during the paint process for cel shade. I still think something like this can work:

Image

Simply tick which color line you want replaced on the fill.

Sorry to keep elaborating. :mrgreen:
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 10 Nov 2015, 02:14

Jet wrote: We also need a 'fill unfilled area' tool like what is found in PaintMan and CSP.
Mr. Jet, here is a sadly information for foreign CSP/MangaStudio 5 users when released on 2nd Nov 2015 (JST).
https://www.celsys.co.jp/pdf/company/pr ... _11_02.pdf
うごくイラスト、アニメ制作機能は日本語版のみの機能です。
"CSP motion graphic/Anime create function presents for only Japanese language edition."
Spoiler : It means ... :
CSP "fill unfilled area" tool is working for still image, but foreign RETAS user can not work with CSP EX Anime function and CLIP STUDIO ACTION (The next generation of coreRETAS that will presents Adobe AfterEffects timeline format exporter near the future) for the time being.

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Elodie
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Elodie » 10 Nov 2015, 05:55

I think the quickest way of describing all this, is can you develop TVPaint to do the following in a single click?
Yes we are able to build the tools you are asking for. But no, it cannot be made in a snap. TV series just don't pop on TV channels by magic and this is the same with software.
(we want the right side of the square to be colored orange, the blue lines represent exactly where we want the boundary to be and we'd like to discard them since after the fill they are useless and a waste of memory)
I have a question : why orange should over filled the blue line ? What if there is a color (green, for instance) on the left : what color should over fill the blue line ?
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 10 Nov 2015, 08:44

Elodie wrote: I have a question : why orange should over filled the blue line ? What if there is a color (green, for instance) on the left : what color should over fill the blue line ?
Because Celsys PAINTMAN simulate the 20th century cel painting method.
First Dark color (shadow/Blue guideline), Second Base color and last highlight color(Red/Orange guideline) from reverse side.
Dark required to include Blue guideline ; highlight need to exclude Red/Orange guideline behind Base color.
donotcallmeEEL.jpg

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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Elodie » 10 Nov 2015, 09:42

Sorry, my question was not clear.
Indeed I know why the blue line (In Jet example) must be over filled...

But how can the software make the difference between base, dark and highlight ?
As you said, in 20th century, people were painting by hand and so, they knew what they were doing.

A software does not read people mind and colours are just objective data.

In this example :
001.png
001.png (718 Bytes) Viewed 7061 times
What colours should fill the blue line ?
002.png
002.png (585 Bytes) Viewed 7061 times
or
003.png
003.png (586 Bytes) Viewed 7061 times
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 10 Nov 2015, 09:53

Correct : 003.PNG.
RETAAAAAAAS.png

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