TVP compared to Retas

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Elodie
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Elodie » 10 Nov 2015, 09:59

Why image 003 is better than 002 ?

ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 10 Nov 2015, 10:22

Because of ... :roll:
My organic Tricorder called "brain" overheats.


May I ask for HELP from your corporation translater at other online talk place ?
I use this tutoreal to explain however it makes you feels like Mr. Spock - "Illogical, it's incomprehensible inefficient process".
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Spoiler : or read Celsys English appendix reference :
Fill tool: IncludeFill

In the [Fill] tool options palette, you can configure [IncludeFill] to also fill the colors whose check boxes are selected at painting. This function is mainly for erasing the color separation lines during painting. Normally in the animation production, the color separation lines are painted together with the shadow. In other words, have [Selected Color], red, green, and blue selected unless you need to keep the color separation lines.

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Fabrice
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Fabrice » 10 Nov 2015, 13:56

May I ask for HELP from your corporation translater at other online talk place ?
You are welcome to write here in Japanese directly, everything will be translated as usual.
We are very careful about what is said in the forum.
Fabrice Debarge

ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 10 Nov 2015, 16:55

It is grateful for your kindness.
Spoiler : written in Japanese :
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Last edited by ten_zero on 11 Nov 2015, 04:28, edited 6 times in total.

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slowtiger
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by slowtiger » 10 Nov 2015, 16:59

Starting with details and painting up to the main colour was a technical necessity in analogue days. There's no reason why anyone should demand to work like this digitally. Good software should allow to paint in whatever sequence you want.
TVP 10.0.18, Mac Pro Quadcore 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11, QT 7.7.3

ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 10 Nov 2015, 18:08

slowtiger wrote:Starting with details and painting up to the main colour was a technical necessity in analogue days. There's no reason why anyone should demand to work like this digitally. Good software should allow to paint in whatever sequence you want.
Spoiler : written in Japanese :
母語で返答させて下さい。

 日本のアニメ制作現場に最初のRETAS!が導入されたのは1993年。
Adobe Photoshop・Fractal Design Painterはver.2が出たばかりの時代、Motorola CPU 68030/40 搭載型Macintosh初期メモリは4MBか8MBあれば御の字、16MBメモリ増設には当時の円相場で10万円以上かかるような環境においてRETASは驚異的な存在でした。以来、2008年の大幅値下げを除けば機能が強化・改善されることもなく、日本のスタジオ普及率90%以上のシェアを保っています。タツノコプロやジブリ・Production I.Gなど一部の企業がAdobe FlashやANIMO・Toonzの導入を試みたこともありますが、統一規格の不在・雇用体制(一作毎の完全契約制)による壁や制作環境への投資を阻む諸々の事情から浸透するには至らず四半世紀にわたる「紙と鉛筆・TRACEMAN・PAINTMAN・AfterEffects」帝国を維持してきました。

 私たちとて最新の完全デジタル作画・仕上げ(彩色・撮影)ソフトがもたらす恩恵を知らないわけではありません。2015年はインターネットやソーシャルネットサービスで簡単に情報が手に入る時代。個人作家や手書きの暖かみを求める商業作品の制作にTVPaintを導入する動きも出始めています。

 ではなぜこの場を借りてRETASの「作法」を語るのか?
まずは言葉の壁・フランスと日本のアニメ制作工程の違い・RETASとTVPaintの違い・ドングル認証への理解・学習情報の不足・習得時間や環境の構築・教育・個人投資の壁・実戦投入までの試験環境を始めとするコストを巡るお偉方との折衝…多くの溝と課題から互いの長所を生かす共存の道を見つける必要があるからです。
Last edited by ten_zero on 11 Nov 2015, 03:13, edited 2 times in total.

Jet
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Jet » 10 Nov 2015, 20:13

Elodie wrote:I have a question : why orange should over filled the blue line ? What if there is a color (green, for instance) on the left : what color should over fill the blue line ?
We overwrite the blue line when we choose to, usually at the beginning when we start coloring shadow. Remember in my TVP "include color line" example I have the blue box ticked? That means I'm telling the fill tool to fill transparent pixels as well as any contiguous blue pixels.

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This was the example I used on the first page which is the process in action in Retas Studio.

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Compare it to the example by tan_zero, it's the same thing.

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Note in the image above in the fourth image, you will need to include the blue lines in the base color to erase them, that means your shadow area will be smaller than in the second image. When we draw the blue line we're careful to include the width of the line as part of the shadow area if that makes sense.

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We have a lot of precision when animating shadows and highlights, for example take a look at this. Keep your eye focused on any of the blue lines. A good example is the shadow under her chin or her belly just above her pants, those shapes are small and extremely tight but a good example of accuracy.

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A closeup.

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It also prevents any color 'boiling' effect like you see in old cel painted series like Nadia because you can check the blue line just like checking an inbetween frame.

Example of line boil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alQQg36FHSA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Jet on 11 Nov 2015, 02:27, edited 2 times in total.
OS: Win 10 [x64] / CPU: 1950X Threadripper [4.0GHz] / RAM: 128GB / GPU: 2x GTX 1080Ti / Display: Cintiq 27QHD
TVP: 10.5.7 Pro [x64] / 11.0.8 Pro [x64]

Jet
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Jet » 10 Nov 2015, 21:20

The only other software I know of that utilizes color separation lines is CACANi. The problem with that though is that it is vector only and refers to the central vector line/path when making color fills and not the stroke/outline and since all paths must be closed it's impossible to workaround, they must be drawn excruciatingly thin.

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It's difficult to see the color separation lines in this example, but if you pay attention to the middle image you'll see all the closed regions that CACANi can fill. But this is what it is doing compared to Retas (it's the same problem with using CTG):

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That's why you need to include the blue line in the fill, not use it as a estimate. It's all user choice anyway, you just need to create a new panel the user can set the options with.

I hope that clears up that the software doesn't calculate which side gets to fill the line, it's whichever side the user decides at the time.

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OS: Win 10 [x64] / CPU: 1950X Threadripper [4.0GHz] / RAM: 128GB / GPU: 2x GTX 1080Ti / Display: Cintiq 27QHD
TVP: 10.5.7 Pro [x64] / 11.0.8 Pro [x64]

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Fabrice
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Fabrice » 11 Nov 2015, 09:00

interesting, thanks everyone or the input.
Now we have work.
Fabrice Debarge

ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 03 Dec 2015, 06:24

Fabrice wrote:interesting, thanks everyone or the input.
Now we have work.
Here is Celsys products static Executing color separation lines (shade/shadow border lines) HTML code for comvert RGB perfectly.
Yellow (especialy for highlights) Pink Sky blue and Light blue required to scribble shading area.
#FFFFFF █████ #FF80FF █████ #FF8000 █████

#FF0000 █████ #80FFC0 █████ #00C0FF █████

#00FF00 █████ #FFFF00 █████ #80FFFF █████

#0000FF █████ #8080FF █████ #FF8080 █████

Attention :
 Paintman will convert #FFFFFF █████ to transparent color.
TVPaint need to create 2 white color palette (pure white #FFFFFF/RGB all 255 █████・non pure white like #FEFEFE・RGB all 254 █████) when you export image file from TVPaint (TIFF TARGA PNG BMP and JPEG) to Traceman/Paintman directly.
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    06.jpg

ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 04 Mar 2016, 04:51

Mr. Jet, have you still check this thread ? Your "Include Fill" on TVP request may dreams come true.

ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 16 Mar 2016, 13:41

This is just a "Quote from Japanim market press information".
CELSYS & SmithMicro inc. announced to present "CLIP STUDIO PAINT / MangaStudio 5" Animate function for CSP English/Taiwanese edition user by free update
( edition Français et Español coming soon )
 http://www.sankei.com/economy/news/1603 ... 53-n1.html (written in Japanese)
 http://www.clipstudio.net/en/promotion/animation (written in English)
Spoiler : including Youtube movie : Turn on English subtitles :

ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 23 Mar 2016, 01:39

CLIP STUDIO PAINT animation function : flip layers auto action set (written in Japanese) This is very useful "inbetween by hand drawing" support action set especially for CSP Pro.
CSP Pro has 24 frames on timeline limited, but if use the auto action you allow to use 999 "layers" as "frames".
That means be able to export 999 serial number images (or layers) PSD/TIFF file for use TVP and other software's timeline.

It is an only regrettable thing ; CLIP SUTUDIO.app/.exe "contents share service" can not use on CSP foreign language edition.
ImageImageImageImage
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Spoiler : including Youtube movie :
How to use CSP Pro24 frame limeted timeline (written in Japanese)

ten_zero
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by ten_zero » 01 Apr 2016, 09:17

An news for CLIP STUDIO PAINTor SmithMicro MangaStudio 5 multilingal license user,
Spoiler : more ? :
The announcement for Japanese edition user, "We will update CLIP STUDIO license agreement on 8th April 2016 ; compatible with multiringal license user sharing notice".

Rewrite for Foreign CSP user,
Celsys decided their contents sharing sevive call "CLIP STUDIO .exe/.app" early presents for English and Taiwanese edition on 8th April 2016 (Japan Standard Time, GMT+9).
That is mean you may sharing Celsys CSP "for Anime function" contents : brush for anime, linetest script, template, color set and etc. ( with a little Primal language : Japanese caption/comment reading skill 8) )

  • Dear Français and Español user, please waiting for a moment to finish CLIP STUDIO .exe/.app localization.
create "Tap wari / peg hole registration per frame" auto action for Japanim workflow
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coloring/outline layer sepalate auto action
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anti alies off outline brush
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convert from base color to shading color action in Japanese Industrial Standard Anime color (for color coordinate)
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Of course, linetest checker auto action, too !
ImageImage

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Fabrice
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Re: TVP compared to Retas

Post by Fabrice » 04 Apr 2016, 09:30

Hi there,

Have you tried the 11.0.3 new coloring options ? : http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php? ... 074#p91074" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some have been created with this topic in mind + various feedbacks from japanese studios.

Keep sending feedbacks so we will keep improving.
Fabrice Debarge

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