DRM and DONGLE

This section is dedicated to the feature & improvement requests (be sure what you are asking does not exist yet in TVPaint Animation ;) )
MeNext
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DRM and DONGLE

Post by MeNext » 21 Oct 2011, 23:06

I believe you should indicate on your site that a dongle is required in order for this software to run. It should be on the order page and evident. Not hidden in the FAQ's and forums. It's very disappointing to have to dish out this money only to find out that the pirates offer a version with more features.

While I try to teach my children that pirating software is not right I have a very hard time when the authors treat me as a thief.....

A dongle is a poor solution to your problem since your software can be found on the net which does not require it. Your clients will continue to purchase the software, the pirates will never pay dongle or not.

If the dongle is such a good idea make it evident that it is required.

NO you cannot install the software on any computer because you need to install DRM in order for it to work and many people do not appreciate this junk to run in the background on their computers. I am one of them.

Your clients are NOT thieves stop treating them as such. :(

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Paul Fierlinger
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 21 Oct 2011, 23:19

You are correct; clients of TVPaint are not thieves; the word client already implies that. Clients pay to have access to the hard work of developers. Thieves take what is not theirs, implying that they don't like being called thieves. Go straight to jail without collecting $ 200 at Start.
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v.veidt
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by v.veidt » 22 Oct 2011, 00:44

I have to agree that a dongle is a poor solution, especially when the average Tablet PC has only two USB ports. They're fragile, they're expensive, and they certainly detract from my experience as a tablet user. That said, the rate of software piracy, particularly in the fields of graphic design and animation, is atrocious. Small, quality developers like TVP need some way to protect their assets against a clientele which would, let's face facts, prefer to pirate the software. The only other solution is DRM, not to be confused with a dongle's driver, which would serve to cripple the software in the event of a software or major OS update, not to mention the menagerie of errors which can, and do, occur in the regular operation of a computer.

That argument aside, I feel I must remark this is the only software user forum in which I have seen people (shockingly often) register an account specifically to expose themselves as pirates and scold the software developers for their attempts to protect their investment. The nerve of some people! The real hypocrisy, however, is that these chumps throw fits in the event their "artwork" is stolen or used inappropriately. I can only imagine how this makes the developers feel.

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idragosani
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by idragosani » 22 Oct 2011, 01:13

We pay for the software and get fantastic support also (and I mean *fantastic*). You don't have to buy the dongle separately, it is shipped with the software. Some companies make you pay extra for the dongle (East West Quantum Leap comes to mind). There are no surprises here -- it's part of the registration process. You put it in your machine and forget about it. If you have registered software, you get free upgrades within the same major release number. What's the big deal?
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
TVP Pro 10 : Intel i7 2600 3.4 GHz : 8GB RAM : Ubuntu Studio 14.04 : Cintiq 21UX

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idragosani
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by idragosani » 22 Oct 2011, 01:19

In my "day job", I am a software engineer. The software my company sells uses a licensing scheme that are based on XML files and an SSL signature key. It causes endless headaches and many different kinds of bugs. I sometimes wish we had a hardware key instead to handle the licensing, it would make things a lot simpler and make the software that much more difficult to pirate.
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
TVP Pro 10 : Intel i7 2600 3.4 GHz : 8GB RAM : Ubuntu Studio 14.04 : Cintiq 21UX

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D.T. Nethery
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by D.T. Nethery » 22 Oct 2011, 02:05

The only problem I see with the present dongle system is that as I understand it if a user loses their dongle or the dongle is stolen then the user must purchase a new license of TVPaint . There is no allowance made for getting a replacement dongle . Even if the TVP company has a record of the user having legally purchased a full license of TVPaint and the user has their sales receipt showing that they legally purchased it , they must still purchase a new license if the original dongle is lost . (someone correct me if I'm wrong about that) . What if the original dongle is damaged ? Can it be returned to TVP in exchange for a new working dongle ?

This seems a bit to me like if I lost the keys to my Toyota and instead of selling me a replacement set of keys the Toyota dealer tells me: "Sorry, but you'll just have to purchase a whole new car , the original set of keys were your only keys , no replacement keys are available."


That said , I am shocked that "Me First" (or Me Next , whatever) thinks that TVP should not be able to take steps to protect themselves from people using illegal copies of TVP for free.

I don't understand the statement by MeNext: "It's very disappointing to have to dish out this money only to find out that the pirates offer a version with more features. " How is that so ? The pirates only offer a pirated software , it does not have "more features" unless you a defining the ability to run a cracked version for free as a "feature" . :roll:

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Peter Wassink
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by Peter Wassink » 22 Oct 2011, 14:25

D.T. Nethery wrote:The only problem I see with the present dongle system is that as I understand it if a user loses their dongle or the dongle is stolen then the user must purchase a new license of TVPaint . There is no allowance made for getting a replacement dongle . Even if the TVP company has a record of the user having legally purchased a full license of TVPaint and the user has their sales receipt showing that they legally purchased it , they must still purchase a new license if the original dongle is lost . (someone correct me if I'm wrong about that) . What if the original dongle is damaged ? Can it be returned to TVP in exchange for a new working dongle ?
Yes in effect TVP regards the dongle itself as the license, if you loose the license you'll have to buy a new one.
if you damage it you can get a new copy of the license hardware(=dongle) for the replacement costs (something like 20 Euro's?)

Especially for laptops and tablet machines its a vulnerable system.

the toyoto analogy doesn't fly... because you are not asking the dealer for a new set of keys but for a new car.
and he has to trust you that you really have lost the keys or you'd be able to use two cars. oh and cars would have to be duplicatable for free and... ah forget it its not a good analogy.

Still you are right that it does feel wrong. You bought with your license the right to use a software.
this transaction is registred at TVPdevelopment so it feels very unfair that if you happen to loose the (cheap) piece of hardware in which this right was "stored" you also loose the right to use the software (which is not so cheap)
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D.T. Nethery
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by D.T. Nethery » 22 Oct 2011, 16:07

Peter Wassink wrote:
Yes, in effect TVP regards the dongle itself as the license

the Toyota analogy doesn't fly... because you are not asking the dealer for a new set of keys but for a new car.
and he has to trust you that you really have lost the keys or you'd be able to use two cars. oh and cars would have to be duplicatable for free and... ah forget it its not a good analogy.

[True, IF we say that the "key/dongle" is more valuable than the "car/software". I see now what you say about "TVP regards the dongle itself as the license" . The analogy does break down as all analogies do at some point , but in my analogy I wasn't considering the key be more than the car , but rather a small inexpensive item that would enable me to continue to use my still functional automobile , if I could just get the replacement key, instead of purchasing a whole new automobile. I don't understand why the TVP dongle can not be uniquely keyed to each users TVP unlock code , so if the dongle is lost or stolen then that particular unlock code can be deactivated by TVP , so the dongle becomes a useless piece of hardware. The honest user who has their purchase receipt on file with TVP would be issued a new unlock code and new dongle keyed specifically to that copy of TVP . Or is that not how it works ? I suppose the unlock code is embedded on the dongle , too ? So the thief could still use it to run another copy of TVP ? -DN

Still you are right that it does feel wrong. You bought with your license the right to use a software.
This transaction is registered at TVP Development so it feels very unfair that if you happen to loose the (cheap) piece of hardware in which this right was "stored" you also loose the right to use the software (which is not so cheap)

I do understand TVP's point of view on the "dongle IS the license" and given the level of piracy that goes on I don't know what a better solution would be.

I completely support TVP against the pirates , I was just pointing out that I don't think the dongle system is ideal since the consequences are so dire if an honest user loses their dongle or it is stolen (as you say , laptop or a tablet pc is very vulnerable ... I suppose something like this might help a bit: http://www.donglelockbox.com/Product_Info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I'm thinking I should get one of those. Of course that is not really portable at all for people using Tablet PC's or a laptop w/Wacom on the go. If someone would design a locking USB port which physically prevents removable of a USB drive that would be ideal. Is there such a thing and I just don't know about it ? )

I am revealing my ignorance on these matters in this post, but how do other software companies handle this issue ? Because of the school I work for I have many different animation/graphics software packages installed on my work computer: ToonBoom Studio, ToonBoom Animate Pro, Digicel Flipbook, iStopMotion, Adobe Creative Suite CS4 including Flash , Toki Line Test, ArtRage , Sketchbook Pro and a few others . TVP is the only animation/graphics software out of that group which uses a dongle. What do the others use to avoid illegal duplication and use ? Is that what "DRM" is ? (see , I reveal my ignorance: I had to Google for "DRM" to find that it means generally "Digital Rights Management" , but is DRM also a kind of software that is installed on the user's computer to prevent their copy of the software they own -- ToonBoom or whatever it is -- from being duplicated ? )

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idragosani
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by idragosani » 22 Oct 2011, 16:29

A lot of applications key themselves to the system they are on (the software my company sells works that way), usually an ID from the processor or some other way of uniquely identifying the system. If you decide to move to another machine, you may have to buy a new license for that machine or re-register the software. Some manufacturers will only allow up to 5 registrations like this, and you are screwed in the same manner as if you lost the dongle. MS Windows works this way as well... if you have Windows installed on a hard drive and move that drive to another machine, you won't be able to use Windows on another machine without a new license.

One major benefit of the dongle is you only have to register once and you can move to any other machine without re-registering. I now use TVPaint on Linux and am using the same dongle I had all along (actually, it came from Bauhaus with Mirage), I didn't have to re-register at all, just plugged in my dongle and off I went. I have other software I have migrated to other machines in a similar way and didn't have to re-register, I just moved the dongle with the installation. That made things relatively painless!
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
TVP Pro 10 : Intel i7 2600 3.4 GHz : 8GB RAM : Ubuntu Studio 14.04 : Cintiq 21UX

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D.T. Nethery
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by D.T. Nethery » 22 Oct 2011, 16:39

In addition to that one product I found called Dongle Lock Box : http://www.donglelockbox.com/Product_Info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
there is also this:

http://www.kensington.com/kensington/us ... quare.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the TVP dongle could fit into the little box , then use the Kensington USB Port Lock to secure the box to the computer , it would offer some level of protection against theft . Of course it ends up disabling the surrounding USB ports , so not a great solution for a laptop or tablet pc user. :(


Image
Kensington_USB_Lock.jpg

.

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idragosani
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by idragosani » 22 Oct 2011, 16:48

That lockbox is a cool idea... $99 is kind of expensive, but certainly a lot cheaper than having to buy a new license for TVPaint!
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
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slowtiger
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by slowtiger » 22 Oct 2011, 18:52

Other methods have their disadvantages too: harddisk authentification looks nice at first, but in case your disk dies this license is lost, as I just learnt the hard way.
TVP 10.0.18, Mac Pro Quadcore 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11, QT 7.7.3

v.veidt
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by v.veidt » 22 Oct 2011, 21:23

D.T. Nethery wrote: http://www.donglelockbox.com/Product_Info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.kensington.com/kensington/us ... quare.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.
That's way too much cost and effort. I just use a USB extension cable and the plastic case that came with one of my old thumb drives. It's very effective against damage and doesn't block the other USB ports.

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idragosani
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by idragosani » 22 Oct 2011, 21:49

v.veidt wrote: That's way too much cost and effort. I just use a USB extension cable and the plastic case that came with one of my old thumb drives. It's very effective against damage and doesn't block the other USB ports.
iLok makes something similar called "Dongle Buddy", but it wouldn't be difficult to make something that does the trick!
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
TVP Pro 10 : Intel i7 2600 3.4 GHz : 8GB RAM : Ubuntu Studio 14.04 : Cintiq 21UX

Lythis
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Re: DRM and DONGLE

Post by Lythis » 23 Oct 2011, 09:21

MeNext wrote:I believe you should indicate on your site that a dongle is required in order for this software to run.
Why do you want they indicate this on the website ? I mean, the dongle is included in the price, you don't pay additional costs. It's not like if you paid for a software and then, you had to pay more for the dongle or the CD.

And the dongle is not a bad solution : my parents are divorced and so, I always have to change computer + the computer in my school. Without the dongle, I would have to purchase 3 licenses ! And I can't afford this. =s

And when I have a problem, it's really nice, because I just have to give my dongle number => Tv Paint knows who I am and which problems I had before. And it's very easy to update (free) or upgrade (cost).

Even if the dongle is not the perfect solution (I remember I lost it once and I thought it was the end of my life :oops: ), but when I found it again, I attached it on my key chain, with a snap clasp and for 5 years, everything still goes well !

Personally, I have never felt being treated as a thief, but as a customer, respected and always helped when needed !

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