Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablemode

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Mads Juul
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Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablemode

Post by Mads Juul » 29 Oct 2010, 15:29

I use the left and right arrow on the keyboard to flip back and forth between my drawings.
As default the keyboard shortcuts Layer:go Right and Layer:go Left is assigned to the left and right arrow.
You could also assign Next/previous Bookmark or next/previous Instance.

But then I came to think of what do animators wan't to flip between?
the bookmarks? the frames? the instnaces? the imagemarks?
I think a animator always wants to flip between whats in the light-table. so if the lighttable is set to frames you flip between the frames if it set to instances you flip between the instances. if it set to bookmark mode you flip between bookmarks. and if there in the futurre will be an image mark mode in the lighttable you flip between imagemarks.
So there for as an feature request I would suggest the to new keyboard function
Layer: Next Lighttable mode
and
Layer: previous Lighttable mode
I think they will be the animators best friend
And I think they should be assigned to the left and right arrow on the keyboard on default.
-Mads
Mads Juul
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Peter Wassink
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Peter Wassink » 30 Oct 2010, 08:41

very interesting suggestion.
though i think i'd like it to switch back to next-instance (or whatever is my prefered "next" setting) when the lightable is off,
because else it might get confusing to manoeuvre around the timeline.
Peter Wassink - 2D animator
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Mads Juul » 30 Oct 2010, 09:22

Peter Wassink wrote: though i think i'd like it to switch back to next-instance (or whatever is my prefered "next" setting) when the lightable is off,
No! for my Feature request its VERY important not switch back when the light table is of that it stays on bookmarks etc.

I mean If you worked with traditional paper you would pick out your keys and place them on your animation desk to work on them. But wouldn't it be strange that as soon as you turned of the lighttable all the breakdowns and inbetween would suddenly be back between the Keys?

It such an important thing when animating that you can pick out drawing and only work on this selection. And it's strange that software like for instance flash really is lacking this feature.

When I first started to use TVPaint it was the first thing I scripted my Flip Bin Included
in "Mads Juul Panel"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3648
All my animators on my productions use my scripts to pick out drawings and work with them with lighttable on and with lighttable off.
I think its such an important feature that it should be implemented by Default.

In a way philosophical I see my lighttable is kind of the selection of drawings I have pegged on my Lighttable And It should stay the same whether the lighttable is turned on or of. And I would always wan't to flip between my selection on my animation desk.

I think maybe if you lighttable is set to 'Bookmarks' and there is no Frames bookmark the lighttable mode should automatically switch to 'Instances'
Like my Flip script do.

-Mads
Mads Juul
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Svengali
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Svengali » 30 Oct 2010, 13:42

At first glance your interesting proposal seems to be do-able right now with a few George scripts. Have you tried proto-typing this functionality in George?

Sven

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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Peter Wassink » 30 Oct 2010, 13:47

madsjuul wrote:
Peter Wassink wrote: though i think i'd like it to switch back to next-instance (or whatever is my prefered "next" setting) when the lightable is off,
No! for my Feature request its VERY important not switch back when the light table is of that it stays on bookmarks etc.
....
-Mads
i see. it does make sense.
i now use my arrow keys for frames
and use , . keys for instances.
while animating i most often use the , . -keys but for example when i'm on an image layer i need the arrow keys to be able to move along the timeline frame by frame

your suggestion could effectively turn the lightable setting into a preference switch for timeline navigation.

this is a great suggestion for us experienced TVP-users, though i'm not sure how logic & clean it is for new users, aren't we adding to the long list of TVP many quirky "secret-handshake"-tricks,
always very handy but deeply mysterious to newcomers....

i do like your suggestion very much but wonder if the Lighttable is the best spot for implementing.
... it could be, not in the preferences, that is buried to deep, maybe the animator panel? just thinking aloud...
Peter Wassink - 2D animator
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Mads Juul » 30 Oct 2010, 18:03

Svengali wrote:At first glance your interesting proposal seems to be do-able right now with a few George scripts. Have you tried proto-typing this functionality in George?
Sven
Yes It would be simple I have already made my own simple version in my panel Under Flip in the top
"Mads Juul Panel"
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3648
But I am so fond of it that I think it should be implemented into the TVPaint.

Ok let me think out loud too
Its about selecting what you want to work with.
which drawing, wich layers.
And it's there Computers really can be a help compared to paper.
But the selection should be the same.
In the lighttable , in the flipping.
Maybe even in the Playback.
Actually I came to think of the lead cleanup artist On the Apple and the work feature. asked that when she playback she would only see the drawings she had bookmarked but with the timing. so all the frames that was not bookmark was skipped. The light table could suddenly be the timeline selection navigator.

I mean the next drawing I see in my Lighttable should also be the next drawing when Flip to the next drawing.
Thats the way it is on paper you have made the selection by picking drawing out and put them on your animation desk. so of course the next drawing is the next drawing.
It should work the same way digitally. the next is the next. In my head that must be the natural navigation I see the next drawing in the lighttable and I press the right arrow and Its that drawing I'm moving to no matter if the lighttable mode is frame instance bookmark or image mark
i . Have you tried my flip bin peter?
Peter Wassink wrote: your suggestion could effectively turn the lightable setting into a preference switch for timeline navigation.
Actually what is the most natural timeline navigation in an animation software?
If I think of for instance adobe flash or adobe after effects the navigation from an traditional 2d animation point of view is terrible.
I don't think that moving frame by frame on the arrow keys is the natural thing. it's default in Flash but I don't want to do that I want to move from key to key.
In Flash you can not even pick out different drawing from your timeline and work on them separately. Is so stupid the navigation in flash seen from a traditional pose to pose 2d animators point of view.
I really think these two functions could put TVPaint Animation navigation into the next level.
And it's quite simple like an Egg of Columbus
Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablemode
Mads Juul
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Svengali » 30 Oct 2010, 20:16

Image Mark Mode option in LightTable and then shortcut key commands = Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablemode.

Makes perfect sense.
Sven

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hilere
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by hilere » 01 Nov 2010, 08:57

I completely follow Mads logic. As an animator you work with your lighttable. For me it makes perfect sense to find this setting back in the lighttable. I think this is where I would search for it too as a new TVP user.

This option will free up some of my shortcut buttons on the cintiq too (I try to go as little as possible to the keyboard). I will only need a next and previous button and one that toggles between the different options.

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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Mads Juul » 01 Nov 2010, 09:27

hilere wrote:I completely follow Mads logic.
:-)
Just to ramble some more..
The more I think about it the more natural and important the linking between your Keyboard flip and Your Lighttable should be.
What I see in the lighttable as the next drawing Should be the next drawing when I press my key or button for next Drawing. And the drawing should be in the same place.
Thats why I think the off pegging system in the Lighttable is a little bit Half baked. I mean I love it. I think it's a great feature.
But the problem is when you flip suddenly the Drawing is at another place and the previous drawing has moved. That's of course because the transformation of the Rotation and Position is only in the Lightable preview.
So the of Pegging doesn't work with flipping at all. And thats not Natural in my book.
I think that every one who have tried to clean up and keep things on model. Then Flipping with the lighttable off is so important to check the volumes.
I made a half baked Off pegging system in Mads Juul Panel. It Isn't pretty but the flipping and Lighttable is in syncronisation. What You see is what you get. WYSIWYG.
I think the Off pegging system should work on the Zoom. So A timeline could have more Than one zoom setting at a time. Why Not? Its computers We can do every thing And think out of the box. I think the Interface should be the same But instead of making keys on the lighttable previews It should make keys on the Timeline Zoom. That would be a baked solution in my book.
-Mads
Mads Juul
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Mail: mjstoryboard@gmail .com

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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Svengali » 01 Nov 2010, 14:48

Thinking out of the box in another way...

The OoP idea could go a step further where instead of taking the actual frame and shifting it for reference, wouldn't it make more sense to use a DUPLICATE of that frame as the transformed image?

The way OoP works now, you move the selected frame (in most cases the previous frame) to a new position but LOSE the lightbox's original image of that frame in its original position, which seems to me to be an equally important reference to maintain.

(moving the actual frame is still imitating the old way... why be stuck with THAT limit?)

What I'm thinking is the OoP transformed image could be a separate color all together, different again from the lightbox color scheme for clarity, so it can be transformed anywhere you want, and could be separately toggled on and off.

Or maybe that's another whole issue from what you are proposing...

I also think it would be helpful if the tv_LightTableMode command also included a flag signifying if the OoP was active and which frame offset(s) it was active for. It might also help to have the "Grab LightTable" option for buttons store the OoP flag(s), as well.

Sven

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Mads Juul
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Mads Juul » 02 Nov 2010, 11:39

Svengali wrote: (moving the actual frame is still imitating the old way... why be stuck with THAT limit?)
That's true we don't have to imitate paper.Now we are animating on computer and what is the best for the process?
But lets Just go back and recap what we are talking abot.
What is the Out of Peg Feature and what do we need it for?

We need it because sometimes it's better for the animation/cleanup that the drawings in ordered on top of each other in another place than just on top of each other(pegged)

general you could say:

Drawings Pegged: Checking arcs and animation
Drawings Unpegged: Checking Volume and Model.

Svengali wrote: The way OoP works now, you move the selected frame (in most cases the previous frame) to a new position but LOSE the light box's original image of that frame in its original position, which seems to me to be an equally important reference to maintain.
I can not see the reason to have the two informations at the same time. And none of the Cleanup artist I have worked with have expressed This Wish.
Either you work with your arcs or you work with the volume.
I want to do one thing at a time And not two things at a time

What I can see is a need for swapping between the two states To work pegged. the work unpegged. then go back to pegged. then go back to unpegged and the positions of the unpegged drawings should be remembered. You can not do that right now And I think this is a draw back for the OOP feature as where it could be so much better than working on paper.

And my big point with all this What I am missing in the OOP feature right now is that I can't flip or step between my Unpegged Drawings. A thing I find Is as important as see them on the lighttable. Because when flipping between drawings its easier to see the volume change is right than with the lighttable. It's always better to flip that to rely on the lighttable. Because you the drawings the life can be lost in the lighttable suddenly everything is just lines. but when your flipping it's becoming shapes volumes. 3- dimensional. The life is in the drawing.And all who have done professional cleanup and keepig model would agree with me on that or?
This is a wish I have myself and the experienced Clean Up artist I worked with on the feaute "The apple and the Work" also expressed this feature.
Don't you miss this when you are Cleaning and keeping your drawings on model Sven?

What I s think would be the solution for a OOP feature is to set individual Zoom, rotation, position on the canvas.
And that would be something completely new compared to the old paper way. I will make a thread n the General discussion so we can discuss this interesting issue some more.
Because i'm not sure what is best.

What I am sure of is that Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablemode. Would be a great feature to implement in TVPAint.
because as an animator this is what you want to step between the drawings you see in you lighttable. When you see the bokkmarks you also want to go to the bookmarks when the lighttable is of when you see the instances you also want to go to the instances and and if you could see the image ma4rks you alse want to flip/step/go to the imagemarks when the lighttable is on aAND when the lighttable is off
-Mads
Mads Juul
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Mail: mjstoryboard@gmail .com

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Peter Wassink
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Peter Wassink » 02 Nov 2010, 11:58

indeed.

flipping "off pegs" would be a very valuable addition for TVP.
as you describe above, it would make keeping volume much, much easier.

it would require individual zoom,rotation & position (=OOP info) for each unique frame. ( do-able?)
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Mads Juul » 02 Nov 2010, 12:27

Peter Wassink wrote:indeed.
flipping "off pegs" would be a very valuable addition for TVP.
as you describe above, it would make keeping volume much, much easier.
And maybe it would also make animating as general easier.
For instance if I'm Going to animate a man walking across the screen i would make an cycle where he is walking in the same place. feet sliding. Because that the way I control the Animation of the pody and head best.

Then I would copy the drawings across the screen so he walks and would make corrections to the animations . But what if You could pegge an unpegge the animation on the fly.
I think this opens up new possibilities for 2d Animation.
_mads
Mads Juul
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Mail: mjstoryboard@gmail .com

Windows 10, 64 bit i7-4790 CPU 4.00 Hz,32 GB RAM, With TVP Animation 11 Pro (11.0.2-64bits)
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Mads Juul » 24 Feb 2012, 11:08

I would like to resurrect this feature request.
the keyboard shortcuts : Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablemode.
I think it would be an important feature.
-Mads
Mads Juul
Storyboard Artist
blog: http://mjstoryboard.blogspot.dk/
Mail: mjstoryboard@gmail .com

Windows 10, 64 bit i7-4790 CPU 4.00 Hz,32 GB RAM, With TVP Animation 11 Pro (11.0.2-64bits)
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Re: Layer:Next Lighttablemode And Layer:Previous lighttablem

Post by Mads Juul » 24 Feb 2012, 11:10

No matter what lighttable mode you are in the next and previous keys should loop.
Mads Juul
Storyboard Artist
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Mail: mjstoryboard@gmail .com

Windows 10, 64 bit i7-4790 CPU 4.00 Hz,32 GB RAM, With TVP Animation 11 Pro (11.0.2-64bits)
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