auto paint

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momo
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auto paint

Post by momo » 31 Aug 2017, 12:50

Hello,

I recently found out the auto paint in the plugin G'MIC for Krita/Gimp.

Basicaly it randomly colorizes any enclosed area and put the colors on a separate layer. This could be used along side with the color replacement tool already present in TVP. No more frame by frame coloring....one click done....for any quantity of frames. :shock:

This could probably same enormous ammount of time for any coloring.
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slowtiger
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Re: auto paint

Post by slowtiger » 31 Aug 2017, 13:02

Wouldn't agree to that. From my experience with colouring in Animo and Toonz I'd say a randomly coloured frame doesn't have any advantage. In that classic workflow, one would check for this after colouoring the scene:
1. Is every area filled? (There was a silhouette mode for this.)
2. Does every area gets the correct colour? (There was a false-colour colouring mode for faster working especially with colours close to each other, view could be switched to real colours any time.)
3. Do I see blinking while the animation is playing? (Replay possible in any colouoring mode. Mistakes would pop up immediately.)

Your idea would just insert another step after #1 and make #2 and #3 more difficult.
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momo
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Re: auto paint

Post by momo » 31 Aug 2017, 16:41

Its true :cry: , unless there was a way to color the correct color in each area. Maybe with a facial recognition software to recognize characters and then.....ok ok stop

...I guess it all comes down to have a better coloring tool the the current ones...
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D.T. Nethery
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Re: auto paint

Post by D.T. Nethery » 01 Sep 2017, 13:59

momo wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 12:50

I recently found out the auto paint in the plugin G'MIC for Krita/Gimp.

Basically , it randomly colorizes any enclosed area and put the colors on a separate layer. This could be used along side with the color replacement tool already present in TVP. No more frame by frame coloring....one click done....for any quantity of frames.
Does the plug-in G'MIC work to do what you are describing if you are auto painting a sequence of frames in Krita or Gimp ? What I mean is: can you actually auto paint like that in Krita or Gimp with no more frame-by-frame coloring , one click = done , for any quantity of frames ? If auto-paint G'MIC can do that in Krita or Gimp I would expect something similar could be done in TVPaint , but I'm trying to figure out if you are discussing something that is real function which works like you describe or is this a "wouldn't it be cool if ..." idea . )

Frankly, I can't see how it would work totally automatic, without involving a lot of manual frame-by-frame checking and adjusting afterwards for the reasons mentioned by Slowtiger .
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Re: auto paint

Post by momo » 09 Sep 2017, 19:04

D.T. Nethery wrote:
01 Sep 2017, 13:59
Does the plug-in G'MIC work to do what you are describing if you are auto painting a sequence of frames in Krita or Gimp
Yes but since Gimp and Krita are not animation software(althought krita has some basic animation function) it works for only one frame at the time.
D.T. Nethery wrote:
01 Sep 2017, 13:59
Frankly, I can't see how it would work totally automatic, without involving a lot of manual frame-by-frame checking and adjusting afterwards for the reasons mentioned by Slowtiger .
Yes of course..

...but honestly I cannot accept that something as repetetive and simple as coloring couldnt be done by a machine. Software for animation need to be going beyond the simple mimic of what we do by hand. I am not a programmer but it must be possible somehow. Or at the least not having to click in every single area on every single frame like with the CGT system. I want to use a computer to go faster.

I guess this post was a failed attempt at to find a faster way to coloring.
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Elodie
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Re: auto paint

Post by Elodie » 09 Sep 2017, 19:13

Have you actually tried the CTG layer in TVPaint 11 ?

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Re: auto paint

Post by momo » 10 Sep 2017, 10:43

Elodie wrote:
09 Sep 2017, 19:13
Have you actually tried the CTG layer in TVPaint 11 ?


Yes I got to work with it on a production earlier this year and it was a bit disappointed to tell you the truth. It certainly better then the old paint bucket.
but:

- it always spills over others area which then need to be excluded. (more areas need to be painted or clicked)
- When having to change a color or erase this is when it becomes very painful to use the squiggle. Often you cannot see the squiggle so you have to guess the size and position and this leads to having to re click multiple time on the same area or worst case is having to erase the squiggle which leads back to hunting the squiggle down zoom in zoom out scrolling around etc..... hunting for something is probably the worst thing that can happen.

That is why I was disappointed. Of course I am really speaking from a studio user experience. Probably if I was at home it wouldnt have been an issue at all.

This is really a recurring thing with TVpaint. You guys have really really wonderful ideas but then when it come to making it pratical/fast to use, it is not always the best (although there was some good improvement with menu and such). The day you guys figure that one out, you will be unbeatable. :)
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slowtiger
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Re: auto paint

Post by slowtiger » 10 Sep 2017, 11:14

it always spills over others area
Without seeing an example of your line work, this is really a broad claim. Area detection can only be that good on non-closed areas. Closed areas will get recognised without fail. But to expect an algorithm to work flawlessly in any situation of broken lines is a bit ... naive?
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momo
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Re: auto paint

Post by momo » 10 Sep 2017, 16:36

slowtiger wrote:
10 Sep 2017, 11:14
Without seeing an example of your line work, this is really a broad claim. Area detection can only be that good on non-closed areas. Closed areas will get recognised without fail. But to expect an algorithm to work flawlessly in any situation of broken lines is a bit ... naive?



I mean the paint bucket can paint non closed area but expecting the same thing from the CGT is a bit naive? Yes the line work was completely fine, a few people went over it, just to make sure. But maybe a generalized stupidity spell was striking the studio at the time so everyone thought the line was fine.


I guess it could be simplified to "add the CGT layer to the paint bucket" feature request.
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Elodie
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Re: auto paint

Post by Elodie » 11 Sep 2017, 05:22

CTG layer, not CGT (it won't go on strikes :roll:).

CTG layer works fine with any kind of line, as long as it is minmum 75% opaque and 2 pixels large. Even on drawing made on paper :

https://www.tvpaint.com/doc/tvp11/index ... pplication

I might be wrong but I think Krita used Lazybrush technology, which is the same technology used for CTG layers.
The difference is that we bought Daniel Sykora's technology and optimized the code to make it work perfectly in TVPaint interface for animations (including automatic palettes, colour tracking for textures, automatic calculation depending on sources, etc..). The purpose of CTG layer is to fill the whole drawing with all the colours within a single layer. So yes, it may spill out if you use a single colour! The CTG layers' technology will colour areas following the sources' lineart AND squiggles (other colours) applied.
I guess it could be simplified to "add the CGT layer to the paint bucket" feature request.
I guess you could just give actual feedbacks on the use of CTG layer and try to understand it instead of giving non-sense development advice.

At least share an example and tell us what went wrong (there might be a bug after all). What is the point of coming here, say you appreciate a feature from Krita, and finally won't give a chance to the exact same feature in TVPaint ?
Post pictures, show us your lineart, tell us what you want with visual examples. If you cannot take the time to do this, it means you don't really want any improvement in TVPaint.
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2dbert
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Re: auto paint

Post by 2dbert » 11 Sep 2017, 12:03

Well, I guess you need a little patience to get a feeling for the use of squiggles, as you do with every drawing or painting tool. Due to the complexity of the calculations it becomes a matter of gut feeling rather than conscious control, at least to me it did, and therefore an invitation to not marvel at but partake in the programmer's wizardry for a change. Well, ain't that a wonderful thing? To me it certainly is.
So my advice is to take the time to learn using it rather than quickly demanding vaguely hinted improvements. After a mildly confusing start it works a treat, I promise.
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momo
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Re: auto paint

Post by momo » 11 Sep 2017, 13:24

2dbert wrote:
11 Sep 2017, 12:03
Well, I guess you need a little patience to get a feeling for the use of squiggles, as you do with every drawing or painting tool. Due to the complexity of the calculations it becomes a matter of gut feeling rather than conscious control, at least to me it did, and therefore an invitation to not marvel at but partake in the programmer's wizardry for a change. Well, ain't that a wonderful thing? To me it certainly is.
So my advice is to take the time to learn using it rather than quickly demanding vaguely hinted improvements. After a mildly confusing start it works a treat, I promise.
yes of course that why I wrote that if I had been at home this issue woulnd t have been noticed.
Elodie wrote:
11 Sep 2017, 05:22
So yes, it may spill out if you use a single colour! The CTG layers' technology will colour areas following the sources' lineart AND squiggles (other colours) applied.
Ah this explains part of it.
Elodie wrote:
11 Sep 2017, 05:22
CTG layer, not CGT (it won't go on strikes :roll:).
LOL
Elodie wrote:
11 Sep 2017, 05:22
I guess you could just give actual feedbacks on the use of CTG layer and try to understand it instead of giving non-sense development advice.
Ill make a new post to explain since this post was originally about autopaint and not CTG that wont go on strike :-)
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Fabrice
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Re: auto paint

Post by Fabrice » 12 Sep 2017, 20:04

yes of course that why I wrote that if I had been at home this issue woulnd t have been noticed.
More than 2 years after releasing CTG layers and more than 4 years after working on the Lazybrush plug-in with its creators, there are quite a lot of studios using the (CTG/Lazybrush) technology everywhere on the planet.

So yes, if you can explain why it doesn't work when working with a team, I'm interested to learn from it and improve.
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