A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

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Soom
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A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Soom » 14 Jan 2016, 16:41

Hi
I am planning to buy a portable tablet with pressure sensitive screen, preferably Wacom technlogogy or equal, for working on TVPaint while traveling. Since I am a Mac and iPad user for the last 7 years, I haven't been following any other system developments. Since TVPaint doesn't have an iPad version (which, in my opinion, is a very sad fact, especially in the light of the new iPad Pro),I am forced to buy a Windows or Android tablet.
Wacom Companion is too expensive for my budget - does anybody has any other suggestions?
I made a little research and found Lenovo Thinkpad 10 and Samsung Galaxy Note Pro 12.2 - but Samsung doesn't use Wacom technology , I'm not sure how TVPaint works with that...

And another question - can anybody explain, how does Nomad work? Do I get a Nomad license automatically, if I already own one TVPaint license?

Thanks
At home: MacBook Pro, Os 10.10.3 (2.2 GHz Intel Quad-Core i7, 16 GB RAM), Cintiq 21", TVP Std 11.0.3
At work: PC, Windows 7, Cintiq 22", TVP Std 11.0.3

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Elodie
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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Elodie » 14 Jan 2016, 16:55

To be honest, Android is miles away from a real OS. Managing files is cumbersome and you cannot enjoy simple things, like connecting a HDD or a Flash drive to share your stuff.
This is surely the reason why Wacom gave up the Android version for its Companion. Plus, due to a specific development + DRM system on Nomad version, you will need to purchase another license (it costs less, but it's not 5 euros...). So, what you save with the device, you will lose it with the Nomad version of TVPaint.
If you are used to Apple stuff, using Android will drive you nut.

Quality has a price and Microsoft Surface Pro or Wacom Companion are worth their cost (much more than an iPad Pro, despite their stylus, it's still far from what both Microsoft and Wacom can offer you).
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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Soom » 14 Jan 2016, 17:22

Elodie wrote:To be honest, Android is miles away from a real OS. Managing files is cumbersome and you cannot enjoy simple things, like connecting a HDD or a Flash drive to share your stuff.
This is surely the reason why Wacom gave up the Android version for its Companion. Plus, due to a specific development + DRM system on Nomad version, you will need to purchase another license (it costs less, but it's not 5 euros...). So, what you save with the device, you will lose it with the Nomad version of TVPaint.
If you are used to Apple stuff, using Android will drive you nut.
Quality has a price and Microsoft Surface Pro or Wacom Companion are worth their cost (much more than an iPad Pro, despite their stylus, it's still far from what both Microsoft and Wacom can offer you).
Haha - yes, you are right about Android probably :)
And what about Lenovo Thinkpad 10? this is a Windows 8 and a Wacom tablet
My work intention is mainly for sketching quick stuff, rough animating and storyboarding, etc , and later take it from there on a normal computer
At home: MacBook Pro, Os 10.10.3 (2.2 GHz Intel Quad-Core i7, 16 GB RAM), Cintiq 21", TVP Std 11.0.3
At work: PC, Windows 7, Cintiq 22", TVP Std 11.0.3

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by neonnoodle » 14 Jan 2016, 18:20

I have used several Windows-based Tablet PCs with Wacom pens. They have all been quite frustrating in one way or another. For one thing, the scaling of UI elements on a small high-res screen makes it difficult to interact with most programs and with the OS in general. Some targets which are simple to click with a mouse are practically impossible to hit with a finger or stylus. It's very easy to move a mouse and then hold it perfectly still when clicking; it's much more difficult to do this with a stylus or finger. The result is that things which should simply be clicked are instead dragged or clicked multiple times. Even with the resolution scaling in TVP 11, it's still too difficult for me to manage.

Also, it becomes absolutely maddening to use any of these devices without a keyboard. Unfortunately the Surface Book does not allow the keyboard to be used wirelessly while the screen is detached in tablet mode. It is helpful to have a Bluetooth keyboard to keep handy while using any of these tablets, but that tends to compromise the portability and workspace flexibility that most users want.

Lastly, the amount of force required to register stylus input on these devices (including the Surface 4, which I tried out in a store) is a lot higher than the initial force required to register on a Wacom Intuos Pro or Cintiq device. I routinely strained my hand and wrist by how hard I had to press down to make marks on Tablet PCs. The other consequence of this is that the range of pressures you can really achieve is much smaller than what is advertised.

The "levels" of pressure are extremely misleading. All this number means is the amount of resolution or the number of pressure "steps" between 0 and maximum. What it does NOT tell you is the minimum and maximum level of force that the sensor is using. For example, if you have a stylus that boasts 2048 "levels" of pressure, but they all take place within a range of 500g of force and 510g of force, you will never be able to take advantage of that range because you will not have the fine motor control to vary your application of pressure within that range.

This is the issue that I have encountered repeatedly with Tablet PCs: the minimum level of force to register is too high, and the total range of force is very small. As a result, you cannot make very fine lines or light marks easily, and strain is unavoidable.

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by D.T. Nethery » 14 Jan 2016, 18:46

Elodie wrote:
To be honest, Android is miles away from a real OS. Managing files is cumbersome ...

If you are used to Apple stuff, using Android will drive you nuts.
Yes, this is what I experienced with Android (first gen Galaxy Note 10.1) . I am used to the Apple way of doing things and Android felt like a step backwards (with my shoes on the wrong feet while trying to step backwards) . TVPaint ran (runs) fine on Android , but I hated the awkwardness of the Android OS itself and Samsung left us original Galaxy Note 10.1 owners out in the cold with no software updates to the latest Android OS . Frankly, I'm not overly fond of Apple these days , so my next computer might be a Windows PC , but for me Android tablets and phablets are strictly for web-browsing and maybe some light sketching with Sketchbook Pro Mobile . (I never really got used to the small tablet screen either ... I love the 21" Cintiq screen which lets me draw like I'm on 16 Field animation paper. )
MAC OS 10.11.6 , Macbook Pro Retina 15-inch, Mid 2015,
2.5 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB Memory , TVPaint PRO 11.0.6, 64bit -
Wacom Cintiq 21 UX - Wacom Intuos Pro 5 - driver version 6.3.20-8

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Elodie » 15 Jan 2016, 07:04

neonnoodle wrote: Lastly, the amount of force required to register stylus input on these devices (including the Surface 4, which I tried out in a store) is a lot higher than the initial force required to register on a Wacom Intuos Pro or Cintiq device. I routinely strained my hand and wrist by how hard I had to press down to make marks on Tablet PCs. The other consequence of this is that the range of pressures you can really achieve is much smaller than what is advertised.

The "levels" of pressure are extremely misleading. All this number means is the amount of resolution or the number of pressure "steps" between 0 and maximum. What it does NOT tell you is the minimum and maximum level of force that the sensor is using. For example, if you have a stylus that boasts 2048 "levels" of pressure, but they all take place within a range of 500g of force and 510g of force, you will never be able to take advantage of that range because you will not have the fine motor control to vary your application of pressure within that range.

This is the issue that I have encountered repeatedly with Tablet PCs: the minimum level of force to register is too high, and the total range of force is very small. As a result, you cannot make very fine lines or light marks easily, and strain is unavoidable.
I read that on Wayne Unten's blog and he fixed it like this : http://animatingforfun.tumblr.com/post/ ... restocking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(ok, it was for SP3, but however, it's a clever way to fix this "minimum level of force to register which is too high")
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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by neonnoodle » 15 Jan 2016, 14:48

It's true that some of this can be compensated for by adjusting the pressure curve; however at root there are limitations in the sensitivity of the hardware itself. This is particularly true among the Wacom Tablet PC's, I'm not sure why. I have also taken the more extreme measure of disassembling my stylus and adjusting the attenuation dials with an eyeglass screwdriver. This can sometimes result in better sensitivity, but it's unpredictable and obviously risky.

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Fabrice » 15 Jan 2016, 19:49

Elodie wrote:I read that on Wayne Unten's blog and he fixed it like this : http://animatingforfun.tumblr.com/post/ ... restocking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(ok, it was for SP3, but however, it's a clever way to fix this "minimum level of force to register which is too high")
Just my two cents, as tabletPC user :

SP3 is not using the Wacom technology, but the N-Trig technology.
So you have delays to have the cursor following the tip of the stylus, as shown on Wayne Unten blog.
+ the stylus buttons can not be configured easily : they open various Microsoft useless programs and I didn't find a way to avoid that unwanted behavior. (Maybe they have better drivers now, I checked 4 months ago)
+ no eraser ...
+ you need a battery in the stylus.

- - - - - - - - -

Cintiq Companion 2 seems much better.
Fabrice Debarge, Product Manager, TVPaint Team

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Soom » 15 Jan 2016, 21:41

Somehow I'm starting to doubt this idea at all - I probably should wait a bit for technologies to develop, and prices drop... :/
At home: MacBook Pro, Os 10.10.3 (2.2 GHz Intel Quad-Core i7, 16 GB RAM), Cintiq 21", TVP Std 11.0.3
At work: PC, Windows 7, Cintiq 22", TVP Std 11.0.3

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Simone » 22 Jan 2016, 16:54

Hi,

Here's my two cents about it: I tried for a couple of weeks the cintiq companion 2 and I choosed to send it back because it was really noisy and always heating. So I tried the Cintiq companion hybrid (the android ones) that was bundled with tvp nomad at a discounted price at that time and I really liked it and decided to keep it.

It has a very good battery life, no noise at all, and tvpaint; but I would suggest it only if your main goal is having a cintiq (using it connected to a computer) and than sometimes you may want to use tvpaint on the go.
If you want a tablet to bring always with you in your bag (and use it also for browsing/reading/music etc..) I would not suggest the Cintiq companion hybrid, it is too big and android will not be update. I am used to mac and ios, and I really can't say that I enjoy working in android with the CCH, but there is TVpaint and I found another good painting app (medibang paint) and I basically use only those apps.
If you need it for some rough animations, or layouts; it works really well; you can customize the wacom ring buttons to flip through frames, for example, and it's ok, even without a keyboard attached. Once you are inside tvpaint it is basically the same as if you were in tvpaint for desktop.

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Soom » 23 Jan 2016, 02:10

Simone wrote:Hi,

Here's my two cents about it: I tried for a couple of weeks the cintiq companion 2 and I choosed to send it back because it was really noisy and always heating. So I tried the Cintiq companion hybrid (the android ones) that was bundled with tvp nomad at a discounted price at that time and I really liked it and decided to keep it.

It has a very good battery life, no noise at all, and tvpaint; but I would suggest it only if your main goal is having a cintiq (using it connected to a computer) and than sometimes you may want to use tvpaint on the go.
If you want a tablet to bring always with you in your bag (and use it also for browsing/reading/music etc..) I would not suggest the Cintiq companion hybrid, it is too big and android will not be update. I am used to mac and ios, and I really can't say that I enjoy working in android with the CCH, but there is TVpaint and I found another good painting app (medibang paint) and I basically use only those apps.
If you need it for some rough animations, or layouts; it works really well; you can customize the wacom ring buttons to flip through frames, for example, and it's ok, even without a keyboard attached. Once you are inside tvpaint it is basically the same as if you were in tvpaint for desktop.
Thanks for your thorough insight! I am afraid I will have to skip this time, and wait for iPad Pro to drop a bit in prices, because I realized, I will not want to deal with the Android, learn a new system, and acquiring Nomad, etc. So probably I will just let go off the idea of using TVPaint, and use other apps, and then import footage to TVP... I didn't try yet the Wacom pen on iPad pro, so I don't really know what I am talking about yet :) I tried though Samsung 10 with the Wacom screen - well, it's kinda ok, but well, didn't really attract me. And the pressure sensitivity - as mentioned here by someone before – is not very good - much much narrower specter, than officially stated.
At home: MacBook Pro, Os 10.10.3 (2.2 GHz Intel Quad-Core i7, 16 GB RAM), Cintiq 21", TVP Std 11.0.3
At work: PC, Windows 7, Cintiq 22", TVP Std 11.0.3

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D.T. Nethery
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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by D.T. Nethery » 23 Jan 2016, 14:39

Soom wrote:
Simone wrote:Hi,

Here's my two cents about it: I tried for a couple of weeks the cintiq companion 2 and I choosed to send it back because it was really noisy and always heating. So I tried the Cintiq companion hybrid (the android ones) that was bundled with tvp nomad at a discounted price at that time and I really liked it and decided to keep it.

It has a very good battery life, no noise at all, and tvpaint; but I would suggest it only if your main goal is having a cintiq (using it connected to a computer) and than sometimes you may want to use tvpaint on the go.
If you want a tablet to bring always with you in your bag (and use it also for browsing/reading/music etc..) I would not suggest the Cintiq companion hybrid, it is too big and android will not be update. I am used to mac and ios, and I really can't say that I enjoy working in android with the CCH, but there is TVpaint and I found another good painting app (medibang paint) and I basically use only those apps.
If you need it for some rough animations, or layouts; it works really well; you can customize the wacom ring buttons to flip through frames, for example, and it's ok, even without a keyboard attached. Once you are inside tvpaint it is basically the same as if you were in tvpaint for desktop.
Thanks for your thorough insight! I am afraid I will have to skip this time, and wait for iPad Pro to drop a bit in prices, because I realized, I will not want to deal with the Android, learn a new system, and acquiring Nomad, etc. So probably I will just let go off the idea of using TVPaint, and use other apps, and then import footage to TVP... I didn't try yet the Wacom pen on iPad pro, so I don't really know what I am talking about yet :) I tried though Samsung 10 with the Wacom screen - well, it's kinda ok, but well, didn't really attract me. And the pressure sensitivity - as mentioned here by someone before – is not very good - much much narrower specter, than officially stated.
Currently TVPaint (or the full desktop version of programs like Photoshop) won't run on iPad , BUT there is this app which will apparently allow you to use your iPad "as a Cintiq" hooked up to your Mac computer , which means you can use the iPad to draw in any program that runs on Mac (including TVPaint) :

http://astropad.com/ipad/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Unbelievable image quality, no compression artifacts
Use your drawing tablet with most styluses
Works with any Mac app (no drivers required)
Built for professional creatives
Customizable shortcuts are a touch away
Pinch to zoom and pan in Mac apps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouwCHT3rGRY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


.
MAC OS 10.11.6 , Macbook Pro Retina 15-inch, Mid 2015,
2.5 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB Memory , TVPaint PRO 11.0.6, 64bit -
Wacom Cintiq 21 UX - Wacom Intuos Pro 5 - driver version 6.3.20-8

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Soom » 23 Jan 2016, 16:49

I have a Cintiq at home already
all I need, is a sketching tablet on the go...
At home: MacBook Pro, Os 10.10.3 (2.2 GHz Intel Quad-Core i7, 16 GB RAM), Cintiq 21", TVP Std 11.0.3
At work: PC, Windows 7, Cintiq 22", TVP Std 11.0.3

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by NathanOtano » 24 Jan 2016, 10:14

Soom wrote:I have a Cintiq at home already
all I need, is a sketching tablet on the go...
I traded my cintiq (companion hybrid) and my laptop for a cintiq companion 2 so i have everything with me everywhere. With a second wide screen at home. It's ok for me :) I don't even use my big gaming computer at home when i'm working, nor the computers at school. It's quiet handy... Same shortcuts everywhere, same calibration, same way to work, powerfull etc.

You can also look to the Surface Book from Microsoft, seems really promising to me.
Storyboard, animation and design work : http://nathanotano.tumblr.com/
As I'm highly interested in animation workflows, I'm open to scripting new TVP functions for individuals and studios. Please don't hesitate to contact me!

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Re: A Question about Tablet PC, Android and Nomad

Post by Fabrice » 24 Jan 2016, 17:20

maybe a new intreresting hardware : ThinkPad Yoga X1 with 2560x1440 def screen (TVPaint not tested though) :

Fabrice Debarge, Product Manager, TVPaint Team

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