Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

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fox
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Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by fox » 27 Jan 2015, 13:29

Hi all...

I'm looking for a 2d animation program since a looong time. TvPaint is amazing! But some black points really big for me make me resisting to buy it!
For 200 euros, I will buy for sure as is. But for more than 1000 euros, I expect that all the interface and experience issues are solve! I cannot buy a program like this and have to do some tweaking work or passby a frustration. I explain...

I really love in Tvpaint, the pencil render, most of the animation tools, and most of the overall experience. Timeline, drawing tools, interface... most of it is amazing.

BUT... this black points destroy for me the experience! (ok, this it what I note, but may be there is a workaround for them.... if it's the case tell me I will be happy to consider I'm wrong)

- I'm using a cintiq. Why should I use the alt key for pan/zoom? Why not the MMB? what is one button of y pencil. It's difficult to press alt everytime when you can just forget you have a keyboard and focus on the drawing. THIS IS A SMALL STUFF IN PROGRAMMING?, BUT BIG IN THE EXPERIENCE!!
- Still with the cintiq... what about the touch? I couldn't activate it, and pan, zoom with my free hand
- Impossible to have clip with different size. You want to draw a storyboard and ALL the shot have to share the same size? So ok, you put ALL the shot according to the bigger one. Annoyong... and then you cannot really get the camera size but draw and the big size. Why cannot just let each clip have a different size?
- Select and moving a part of the image, if you want to operate on multiple mayer is not accurate. You preview the result ony for one layer and have a lot of clic to acheive what you want. Photosop is perfect for that... mimic it could be a cool solution
- I miss the TAB from photoshop. There is some stuff like this, but all are complicated : the v key is not really full screen, diferent workspace change the keyboard... why not a key for just removeing ALL panels of the screen and let you operate on the image with keyboard?
- and the last one, may be the only one really big in proigramming... you have to flatten the FX! Why ot keeping them as non destructive like after effect? This kill all the avantage of the FX stack.

May be without the last one, I consider that all of this points ruin my experience with TVpaint. I'm ready to buy it... when all of this will be solve!
But well, it's still promizing :)

Thx

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schwarzgrau
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by schwarzgrau » 27 Jan 2015, 17:54

I'm with you on all of your points and I know it's annoying to create a topic for each one of it, but it makes it a lot easier to discuss them. By the way I guess you should have posted in the feature request forum.
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by Sewie » 27 Jan 2015, 19:41

For 200 euros, I will buy for sure as is. But for more than 1000 euros, I expect that all the interface and experience issues are solve! I cannot buy a program like this and have to do some tweaking work or passby a frustration.
I work with the Pro version of TVPaint almost every single day and I want to mention that it is very robust and reliable software. It almost never crashes and I have not yet lost any substantial amount of work due to crashes or stability issues for the last, almost 7 years that I have been working with it. I agree, it's not cheap but I believe it's well worth every penny!

And yes, there are improvements to be made, but please don't ignore what is there. It has a lot great functionality that will give you much more control over your hand drawn animation and help you produce your work more efficiently than any other method (software or old fashioned pencil and paper) that I can think of. Especially the drawing engine is something unique and a joy to work with! So all wishes and feature requests aside, don't ignore that TVPaint has a lot of great code under it's hood.

I think if you value a slick and very modern interface more than reliability then perhaps TVPaint is not your thing. You could go the Photoshop route with After Effect as your animation tool. Or Sketchbook for that matter. I have tried it with Photoshop and AE, but it wasn't worth the headaches. TVPaint's hand-drawn animation workflow is just much more elegant to me. (But I often still use AE for camera moves though.)
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 27 Jan 2015, 20:06

There's something I don't understand here. If TVPaint would be as useless as described here (although I had trouble reading through the sloppy copy so I might have missed something) how is it that so many people have made so many films, award winning films, with TVPaint? Sandra and I have made two feature films and a whole bunch of TV specials, plus a slew of TV commercials and children's TV shorts starting with TVPaint 5.0 (then called Aura) without using any other software, films which we used to make the traditional way too, before there were any computers. To pay $1.300 for the software plus about the same for hardware is peanuts compared to about $ 250.000 we had to put out before for the hardware alone, before we could start paying for bond paper, film stock, film labs and on and on.

And to your complaints that there are too many things that don't work the way they are supposed to work based on your opinions, not on general facts, let me tell you that an Oxberry animation stand and a Cinemonte 10 plate editing table needed continuous maintenance because it was just the nature of those beasts for plenty of things to degrade. Yearly maintenance of a small, home animation studio such as we had cost maybe two or three times more than the price of TVPaint.

If your objective is to make films for a living, $1.300 is pocket money and should be covered by the first TV spot or industrial short you make. If your objective is to learn how to animate, there is no need to buy the professional version and I can't see how the output of $300 or even $600 dollars can warrant such a rant. I can't help but wonder what the quality of your work is, judging upon the way you completely missed the availability of a spell correcter.

- - -

EDIT (Fabrice) : (Aura 1.0 created in 1996 was more or less the TVPaint 5.0 engine /// TVPaint 1.0 however was created in 1991 , 5 years before)
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by D.T. Nethery » 27 Jan 2015, 20:13

fox wrote: I really love in Tvpaint, the pencil render, most of the animation tools, and most of the overall experience. Timeline, drawing tools, interface... most of it is amazing.

BUT... this black points destroy for me the experience! (ok, this it what I note, but may be there is a workaround for them.... if it's the case tell me I will be happy to consider I'm wrong)
First of all , welcome to the forum.

Second , I think I understand most of the points you are making (although spell-checking and correcting your posts would help everyone communicate better ) but a lot of what you are bringing up has been discussed frequently and certain workarounds have been suggested . So using the SEARCH function for past topics covering your concerns might be fruitful. Other points you bring up are under consideration on the developer's "To Do" list . Some may be implemented sooner than later .

Third, none of what you posted is really about "technical support" as such , it's more in the line of "feature requests" , so make sure you're posting in the appropriate sub-forum.

2nd EDIT: Ok, now I see from the Admin's post below this one that you had originally posted this in Feature Requests , but the Admin decided to move it from there , so my mistake ... although to me I don't know how this post falls under "Tech Support" either , because no support can realistically be offered for functions that don't exist yet (like non-destructive referenced FX ) .

Fourth, I agree with Sewie (post above mine) : TVPaint is great on it's own terms (not comparing to other softwares) so you might be happier if you would focus on what TVPaint IS rather than what it is NOT. (all the while acknowledging with everyone here that there can always be improvements and I think if you hang around you'll find the development team very open to respectful requests and suggestions) .

*1st EDIT: and I notice that Paul posted between Sewie's post and mine and I also agree with what Paul is saying and I think you should take it under consideration)



.
Last edited by D.T. Nethery on 27 Jan 2015, 21:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by TVPaint » 27 Jan 2015, 21:16

Welcome in the TVPaint forum, Fox.

The topic was initially created in Feature request, but was moved : obviously, most of these "requests" are technically not possible in the current TVPaint engine (and reasons or explanations can be found on the forum yet), especially stuffs like Alt, Clips' size or the way FX stack works (as the most active and the oldest of you know, it's not a revelation that having different size for clips, another shortcut than Alt and floating FX like AE would be awesome and if it was easily doable, it would be already available).

We keep Feature request clear for requests that are technically possible at short or mid term.

Fox, it's not against you, but this conversation seems more being a "convince me that TVPaint worths the price" and not "I have good ideas to improve the software" (which is the real aim of Feature requests). That's why it has been moved.

Sorry for this long parenthesis. I'll let other TVPaint users give their own feedback.

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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by fox » 28 Jan 2015, 09:02

Hi...

Waow, I didn't excpect so much answers like this!
Sorry if I put the topic in the wrong categorie. And sorry to if you get it like ""convince me that TVPaint worths the price".
I read that sewie and ferlnger get super emotional on the answer... I didi'nt wanted to hurt your feelings about your daylife tool. Yes, as I said, Tvpaint have amazing features and render engine.

But you right, I will write it as "I have good idea to improve the software". What is :
-use only MMB for navigating
-add support fo touch
-clip with differents sizes
-full screen draw feature
-move more than one selection on multiple layer easier

I write my opinion, and only mine, and explain, why ME, I will not buy it now. This is a personal opinion, that doesn't juge the software itself, but gives my very subjective view. For the needs I have, I can use photoshop for animating. I would love to use tvpaint, but I will not for the points I said.
I talk with some ppl, and I'm not alone in this situation.
Exepct for the fxStack point, It seems to me easy to do (but may be it's not) and could give a lot of customers more!

But I can understand that if you do animatio 100% of your time, this points are very smalls.

Just for the alt stuff... I tried to tweak it with autokey. I join a file : pan = MMB, zoom = alt+MMB

have anice day with tvpaint, and if you add this features, tell it to me :)
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by Sewie » 28 Jan 2015, 09:38

I read that sewie and ferlnger get super emotional on the answer... I didi'nt wanted to hurt your feelings about your daylife tool.
I wasn't emotional, just wanted to point out that you're looking at this issue somewhat unbalanced and a bit uninformed.
Btw, the full screen draw feature is already there, it doesn't work like it does in Photoshop, but there you go.
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by schwarzgrau » 28 Jan 2015, 10:08

Oh nice, could you tell me how? The last time I searched for it there were a lot of long threads about it and I didn't find an easy answer.
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by Sewie » 28 Jan 2015, 10:16

You toggle the Layer Panel and if you then press this triangle on both toolbars, so that it points to the side, the bar will disappear when you move your pen to the drawing area.
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 28 Jan 2015, 10:17

These uninformed complaints crop up every once in awhile and the unjustified impulse to shout "WTF?!! PhotoShop! I want more PS!" Yes, I get emotional and I'll tell you why. The 2D market is tiny, miniscule therefore fragile. If there would be any real money coming from our profession, PS would be the first to go after us. I think the TVPaint developers are heroic in their 20 year effort to keep us supplied with a viable and growing software program under these conditions. They have 5 programmers (or is it 4?) PS has 500 (or is it 5000?). At these rates it makes no difference.

There is nothing better for us than TVPaint, otherwise you wouldn't witness such passions flare up and I can guarantee you that none of the people at TVPaint are getting rich. If 2D software would be lucrative business, your beloved PS would be at our doorsteps first. Have any one of you given that any thought? Think about why PS won't touch the demands of 2D artists? So show a bit more understanding for this artisan craft instead of barging in on us like spoiled brats because you can't have everything in the world the way you want it. OK, so now I am really emotional: If you have reasons for not buying TVpaint, go away. What makes you think that we are so interested in how, why you won't buy TVPaint and why you think $1.300 is too much?

Do you really think everyone here is so stupid and can't see what you see therefore we need to listen to you so that our heads could be lifted up from the murky bogs of ignorance? Why am I so emotional? Because I see you as a spoiler, the guy who gives a single star to show off how much he knows, which is everything. Then comes along another buyer wondering why this product is gaining such strength in the animation business, reads your thread with a very provocative title and turns away. "No PhotoShop in here -- not for me..." Just go back to your Supermall and play with the little girls....
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by Sewie » 28 Jan 2015, 10:28

But then again, Paul; Fox has every right to point these issues out, hasn't he?
And getting as angry as you seem to do doesn't help pulling in any potential costumers visiting this forum either, does it?

In as far as Fox's critique goes, it does show us, the veterans (and programmers), what it is that many new costumers are looking for in their contemporary software. And for the TVP developers that's a good thing to take note of, I believe.
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by fox » 28 Jan 2015, 10:33

Fierlinger, well, you are insulting me so I will not be part of your conversation.
I read a new time my old post, and I talk in my name only. What you don't do. Is it possible for you that someone give a different opinion than yours?

For everyone else than Fierlinger. Yes, tvpaint developers did an incredible job. I wroste it already... waow, I will quit this conversation!!

Have a nice day.

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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by schwarzgrau » 28 Jan 2015, 10:41

Ah ok, that is something I already know. I hoped for something like a keypress, and I only see the drawing-area. Thank you anyways Sewie.

Of course it's annoying to read another post like "why has TVPaint not all the useful features of Photoshop? and why is it THAT expensive?", especially if it's such a demanding post, but if someone new comes here to read this thread I guess he won't think "No PhotoShop in here -- not for me...", he would think "Why does someone with nearly 7000 post insult someone in this manner, after his second post?"
I'm someone myself who can't hide his anger in this forum very well too, even if the reason is a different one most of the time, but this isn't the place to get that emotionally.
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Re: Multi feedback on tvpaint and why I will not buy it now

Post by Paul Fierlinger » 28 Jan 2015, 10:57

"Why does someone with nearly 7000 post insult someone in this manner, after his second post?"
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: maybe that's why, so back to drawing for me. There's no better anger management than a few hours of inbetweening.
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