Selection tool issue

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fluffiekom
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Joined: 06 Oct 2016, 14:21

Selection tool issue

Post by fluffiekom » 30 Mar 2021, 12:55

Hey everyone,

I have a little issue with the selection tool since the new update.
Normally i had my selection tool on "add", this way i could easily add and subtract selections with the short keys.
Since the update my selection tool is always on "replace" when I reopen TVPaint (even after I saved a file with the selection tool on add)

So I was wondering if there is a way to get it back to "add", even when I reopen tvpaint?
If not I can just make a new short key myself for now.

Thanks in advance :)

TVPaint 11 Pro (11.5.0 - 64bits)
Macbook Pro - MacOS Catalina

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slowtiger
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Re: Selection tool issue

Post by slowtiger » 30 Mar 2021, 13:28

Maybe this asks for a general solution: any choice like this should have the option, at RMB, to "save as default".
TVP 10.0.18, Mac Pro Quadcore 3 GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11, QT 7.7.3

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Dean
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Re: Selection tool issue

Post by Dean » 30 Mar 2021, 14:13

Hi, you're right the selection mode should be saved between sessions. I added this to the to-do list :)
About the change of default selection mode, we set it to "Replace" because while giving trainings, I saw that the vast majority of the students came from Photoshop and were disturbed by the fact that selection didn't work in the same way.
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fluffiekom
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Joined: 06 Oct 2016, 14:21

Re: Selection tool issue

Post by fluffiekom » 30 Mar 2021, 14:22

Ah ok that explains it!
Thanks for the quick replies and for adding it to the to-do list :D

I will make a short key with add for now

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D.T. Nethery
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Re: Selection tool issue

Post by D.T. Nethery » 30 Mar 2021, 16:33

Dean wrote:
30 Mar 2021, 14:13
Hi, you're right the selection mode should be saved between sessions. I added this to the to-do list :)
Thank you . I would like it to save my selection mode (Add).

Dean wrote:
30 Mar 2021, 14:13
About the change of default selection mode, we set it to "Replace" because while giving trainings, I saw that the vast majority of the students came from Photoshop and were disturbed by the fact that selection didn't work in the same way.
Ha-ha , the exact opposite for me , it is one of the things that trips me up when I have to use Photoshop , that to continue using the freehand select (lasso) I must remember to hold down Shift key . I'm so used to the good old way of TVPaint where it is in Add mode , so I don't have to hold down Shift .

But I wonder: aren't the Photoshop users equally disturbed that TVPaint's "Replace" selection mode doesn't allow them to hold down Shift to continue using Selection , as it functions in PS ?


While we're talking about similarities between TVPaint and Photoshop, I would be very happy if TVPaint could add a Quick Selection tool like in Photoshop. Sometimes this Quick Selection Tool is much more efficient than the Magic Wand selection.
Screen Shot 2021-03-30 at 10.33.49 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2021-03-30 at 10.33.49 AM.jpg (57.28 KiB) Viewed 403 times

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Dean
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Re: Selection tool issue

Post by Dean » 30 Mar 2021, 16:43

Hello David, yes of course one situation that some users see as totally normal is a big workflow disturbance for other, etc! Most of my students are 1st year and a big part of them have primaly drawn on paper and started using Photoshop or some free drawing software in high school. Most of the time, they haven't dug very deep into the software's possibilities and are just used to pressing M to get a rectangle selection and select the free hand tool by clicking on the toolbar.

I have been wishing for a Selection brush in TVPaint for some time too! Since I am not a dev, I can't really tell what can be done in this direction in v11, though :P
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Padruig
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Re: Selection tool issue

Post by Padruig » 30 Mar 2021, 18:36

Hi all,

I saw this thread and wanted to add my opinion. As a long time TVPaint user, these little changes to the software are things that I find really frustrating and trip me up. I understand the need to help students and new users get into the software quicker and ease the learning curve of the software. The more people who use it the better for everyone! But changing the behaviour of TVPaint to match that of Photoshop is not a good road to go down. I think there are better ways to do this and I think identifying the strengths of the TVPaint software and making sure new users understand those will help ease them into the a new and "different" environment.

In my opinion, it is understanding the role the RMB plays all throughout TVPaint. I think this should be documented more in all the help materials and tutorials. I was surprised how many people didn't know about the RMB and how it can be used with virtually every tool in TVPaint, here is the link to that discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5621&start=15

This recent change to the selection tool is a good example of why I think it would better to really understand RMB. As it used to be, you could make a selection and continue adding to that selection with no keyboard shortcut. Then to deselect use the same tool with the RMB. It is a simple solution and is consistent with how all of the other tools can be used TVPaint, it is a very consistent and powerful behaviour throughout the entire software. It requires one button to use the selection tool as both select and deselect. In photoshop you need the shift button to add to the selection or the option button to deselect. That is two different keys. It is more complicated in PS. I don't think TVPaint should try and move away from its core strength to make it more comfortable for students.

If we want to help students further, TVPaint could come with a few different shortcut sets that new users could choose from. Have it ship with a shortcut set that mimics Photoshop (as much as possible) or another that has shortcuts similar to Flash/Animate for adding and removing keyframes. This way students can feel more at ease with the shortcuts and how to find tools while allowing them time to ease into the differences that TVPaint has. These solutions will help and lets the user decide what they want while keeping the core of the software working consistently. It is a way to keep students and long time users happy.

Of course things need to change and long time users have to adjust too. But I think a good rule of thumb is if a change will impact how a tools work with RMB then it should be a users choice to change it.

Anyway, I don't mean to ruffle feathers I just think change management is difficult at the best of times and I just wanted to add my two cents in case it may be helpful.

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D.T. Nethery
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Re: Selection tool issue

Post by D.T. Nethery » 31 Mar 2021, 00:28

I agree with what you have written here, Padruig.

I think the idea of providing optional presets for Shortcuts that mirror (as much as possible) Photoshop , or Adobe Animate , or Harmony would be a good idea to help new TVPaint users get acclimated to the software.

It would also help to produce more short tutorials on basic keyboard shortcuts and functions that are useful in TVPaint. There is so much that is easy to do in TVPaint once you know how , but learning it can be a steep learning curve for people that come from a different set of software (such as Adobe). One of the great strengths of TVPaint is how customizable it is to a user's preferred way of working , but for the new user this is often daunting because they have so many choices (such as configuring keyboard shortcuts , or making custom panels) that it can be hard to know what to choose. (this is from my experience as a teacher , working with students who are new to using TVPaint. )

Animator, TVPaint Beta-Tester, Animation Educator and Consultant.
MAC OS 10.14.6 , Macbook Pro Retina 15-inch, Late 2013,
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Dean
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Re: Selection tool issue

Post by Dean » 01 Apr 2021, 09:56

Hey these are very good ideas, I will discuss this with Xavier when we have some time (right now we must discuss how to adapt to the new COVID restrictions which were announced yesterday).
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