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Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 17 Feb 2021, 14:51
by Animationriver
Hello. I recently started using different layer options. I have a question. What's up with the color? Is this a program error or am I not using the program's features correctly?
I have attached a video. Look here please.

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 18 Feb 2021, 16:57
by D.T. Nethery
I think the issue you are describing is related to a longstanding problem with how TVPaint handles merging different blend modes, especially multiply blend mode layer with a normal color blend mode layer. This has been brought up several times in the past. For example , see this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8738

In that thread it was suggested that TVPaint's way of merging a multiply blend mode layer with color blend mode layer is the correct and expected behavior , but as far as I know only TVPaint behaves this way. If you try it in other programs like Photoshop, Autodesk Sketchbook , Artrage then you get a different result. In Photoshop, Autodesk Sketchbook , Artrage when you merge a multiply layer with a normal color layer it looks like this:
Merging Multiply Layer in Photoshop.png
But in TVPaint this is the result:
Merging Multiply_Layer_in_TVPaint.png
I wonder why is it the same result when merging layers in Photoshop, Autodesk Sketchbook , Artrage (and other programs as far as I know ... those are three programs I am familiar with), but only in TVPaint it gives this result ?

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 18 Feb 2021, 19:37
by Animationriver
What should I do?
Wait for a new version of the program?
:D

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 18 Feb 2021, 20:58
by D.T. Nethery
Animationriver wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 19:37
What should I do?
Wait for a new version of the program?
:D
I think it is being worked on , so should be fixed soon (?). But how soon , I have no idea ... In the meantime , if it's just a single image as shown in your example , I would suggest
Export To > Clips Layers Structure > PSD (all layers). So then take the layers into Photoshop to merge them, then import the merged image back into TVPaint.

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 19 Feb 2021, 18:41
by Animationriver
D.T. Nethery wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 20:58
Animationriver wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 19:37
What should I do?
Wait for a new version of the program?
:D
I think it is being worked on , so should be fixed soon (?). But how soon , I have no idea ... In the meantime , if it's just a single image as shown in your example , I would suggest
Export To > Clips Layers Structure > PSD (all layers). So then take the layers into Photoshop to merge them, then import the merged image back into TVPaint.
Thank you for your responsiveness. This is a developer test ... for a forum. I have long dreamed of creating a color project in this program. Now I see a big obstacle.

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 22 Feb 2021, 15:01
by 2dbert
Another thing you can do is, instead of merging the layers, to create a new empty layer, make a custom brush out of the to-be-merged layers and press "stamp in place" on that new empty layer. Then I believe you get what you see. If you want to keep your project small and tidy, you then have to get rid of the source layers for your custom brush, or else make them invisible. A bit cumbersome, but possibly less so than exporting and re-opening in Photoshop, particularly if it is more than one image. In such a case, your newly created layer obviously needs to have enough empty instances. The "duplicate structure" button of the new layer menu will provide you with that in most cases, so long as your source layers don't vary too much in structure.

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 22 Feb 2021, 16:55
by D.T. Nethery
2dbert wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 15:01
make a custom brush out of the to-be-merged layers
How can a custom brush be made out of two (or more) yet-to-be-merged layers ?

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 22 Feb 2021, 18:51
by slowtiger
Custom Brush mode "display".

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 22 Feb 2021, 20:43
by 2dbert
Hm, you're right, David, I tested it just then and the custom brush actually doesn't pick up the content of multiplied layers, though I could have sworn that I have used this method successfully in the past. Maybe it worked in a previous version? Or maybe it hadn't been multiply mode layers but some other mode that also doesn't survive merging layers, one of the Overlay modes perhaps. Anyhow, I'm sorry the suggestion in my previous post isn't helpful at all, I shall test first and post after next time.

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 23 Feb 2021, 04:29
by D.T. Nethery
slowtiger wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 18:51
Custom Brush mode "display".
Oh, very nice ! I never noticed that on the Cut Brush. Thank you.

This Display image consists of four layers: Line with normal Color Blend Mode , Shadow layer with Multiply Blend Mode, Color tint layer with Soft Light Blend Mode, and normal Color fill layer.
Cut Brush SOURCE_is_DISPLAY.jpg
Cut Brush_Stamp_In_Place.jpg


And now I see another way of merging a composite image with the blend modes intact: Use the *KeyFramer , with source set to DISPLAY.
KeyFramer_Merge_using_DISPLAY_as_Source.jpg
(*Sadly, this method of compositing with the KeyFramer does not work if the source images do not include at least one layer (on the bottom layer under the blend mode layers) which is a normal Color blend mode image. If the images are only in blend modes such as Multiply they do not appear in the KeyFramer . See this topic for more discussion of the issue: https://www.tvpaint.com/forum/viewtopic ... 21&t=13271 )

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 23 Feb 2021, 04:37
by D.T. Nethery
2dbert wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 20:43
Hm, you're right, David, I tested it just then and the custom brush actually doesn't pick up the content of multiplied layers, though I could have sworn that I have used this method successfully in the past. Maybe it worked in a previous version? Or maybe it hadn't been multiply mode layers but some other mode that also doesn't survive merging layers, one of the Overlay modes perhaps. Anyhow, I'm sorry the suggestion in my previous post isn't helpful at all, I shall test first and post after next time.
It works fine. - - EDIT: Well, unfortunately, it does not work (at least not for all cases). See my follow-up post HERE with a further explanation. - - See the post above this one. Slowtiger supplied the crucial information: use the CutBrush with the mode set to Display. It will pick up all the layers with the blend modes intact. ( EDIT: IF the blend mode layers are over top of a normal Color layer, as in the example I posted. Otherwise blend mode layers will be clipped if they are outside of the Color layer)
Cut Brush SOURCE_is_DISPLAY.jpg

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 23 Feb 2021, 11:06
by slowtiger
Isn't that amazing, that even amoung decade-long users something that elementary can go unnoticed? *g*

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 23 Feb 2021, 15:02
by D.T. Nethery
slowtiger wrote:
23 Feb 2021, 11:06
Isn't that amazing, that even amoung decade-long users something that elementary can go unnoticed? *g*
Yes, it's always a pleasant surprise (and sometimes slightly embarrassing) to find something new about the software that I had not ever used before. I don't use the Cut Brush tool that often, so the ability to cut a brush from the entire display (not only cut a brush from individual layers) was something I had overlooked.

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 23 Feb 2021, 15:20
by Svengali
In 11.0.10 it looks like the resulting CUTBRUSH with display mode checked including a multiple layer overlap works just like the TVPaint example you originally show comparing PS and all the other apps VS TVPaint. Is your CUTBRUSH result different David?

sven

Re: Multiply layer MERGE ALL

Posted: 23 Feb 2021, 15:55
by D.T. Nethery
Svengali wrote:
23 Feb 2021, 15:20
In 11.0.10 it looks like the resulting CUTBRUSH with display mode checked including a multiple layer overlap works just like the TVPaint example you originally show comparing PS and all the other apps VS TVPaint. Is your CUTBRUSH result different David?

sven
The CutBrush method works fine for me: with Display mode checked, the blend mode layers are retained in the resulting CutBrush. I'm using TVPaint 11.5 . (I presume it's been the same in previous versions of TVPaint, I just never knew about the option in CutBrush to cut a brush from the entire Display. EDIT: Well, I was completely wrong about that . See my follow-up post about it .


What does not work is actually MERGING the layers (rather than creating a composite image into a CutBrush or using the KeyFramer with source set to Display).
In that case only TVPaint has the merged results where the merged image is clipped . When merging layers with different blend modes (multiply, etc.) in Photoshop, Autodesk Sketchbook, ArtRage , the merged image is the whole image , it is not clipped as in TVPaint.

As in this topic: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8738

and my post above: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14122#p123743

Also , this: https://www.tvpaint.com/forum/viewtopic ... 21&t=13271