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Animationriver
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4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by Animationriver » 14 Mar 2018, 11:36

Hello friends.
I need to make a video in 4K format.
I have doubts about my knowledge on the subject.

Full HD
1920-1080
16:9

4K
4096 - 2304

Is this a correct understanding of the way to the final?
Or you need to pay attention to ...
HELP!
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Снимок экрана 2018-03-14 в 14.14.39.jpg
Снимок экрана 2018-03-14 в 14.14.39.jpg (17.03 KiB) Viewed 1403 times
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by slowtiger » 14 Mar 2018, 12:01

You need to be very careful about which output format you use.

1. Is it for cinema? If yes:
2. Is it for film?
4K Film (full aperture) 4096 x max.3112
You'll only use some 2000 of the 3112 horizontal pixels, depending on your aspect ratio.

If no:
3. Is it DCP?
4K DCP: 3996 x 2160 ~16:9

4.Or is it for TV?
4K UHD: 3840 x 2160 =16:9

As you see the DCP is the one with the smallest horizontal resolution, so it's always possible to start with the larger formats and cut off from the sides for DCP.

(Aside: HD DCP is 1998 x 1080, so it's a bit larger horizontally than TV FullHD 1920 x 1080. In projection in cinema you may notice a very small black area on both sides if your film is just FullHD.)
Last edited by slowtiger on 16 Mar 2018, 13:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by Animationriver » 15 Mar 2018, 19:00

slowtiger wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 12:01
You need to be very careful about which output format you use.

1. Is it for cinema? If yes:
2. Is it for film?
4K Film (full aperture) 4096 x max.3112
You'll only use some 2000 of the 3112 horizontal pixels, depending on your aspect ratio.

If no:
3. Is it DCP?
4K DCP: 3996 x 2160 ~16:9

4.Or is it for TV?
4K UHD: 3840 x 2160 ~16:9

As you see the DCP is the one with the smallest horizontal resolution, so it's always possible to start with the larger formats and cut off from the sides for DCP.

(Aside: HD DCP is 1998 x 1080, so it's a bit larger horizontally than TV FullHD 1920 x 1080. In projection in cinema you may notice a very small black area on both sides if your film is just FullHD.)
And what's wrong will happen if I just render in 4K format
4096 - 2304 px
????
Will I get an error when viewing on the big screen?
So many nuances ...
I have already started producing in the format
4096 - 2304 px
what parameters should I put when exporting a video to get 4k?
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by slowtiger » 16 Mar 2018, 11:49

You need to answer 2 questions first:
- what's your project's intended academy ratio? 16:9, 1:1.66, 1:1.85, 1:1.33, 4:3, whatever.
- what's your most important output format? 35mm film, DCP, HDTV?

The answer to the second gives you the horizontal "4K" resolution you need, with the answer from the first you can calculate your vertical resolution then.
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by Animationriver » 16 Mar 2018, 13:31

I answered these questions. Here is the video.
Now you can be sure that everything will be ok when I turn on the 4k on the TV? :D
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by slowtiger » 16 Mar 2018, 13:43

Please, use your own calculator next time.

4096 x 2304 equals a 16:9 ratio. You don't do anything wrong by animating in this size.

However, depending on your broadcaster/producer/distributor, they may ask you to deliver in exact UHD dimensions, which is 3840 x 2160. Simply a matter to scale down while exporting.
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by Animationriver » 16 Mar 2018, 14:10

I look a bit stupid, trying to get a very accurate answer to my questions. And thank you for your patience. In one day I decided to make a storyboard. My operator said that he will shoot 4K Anamorphic. I chose this format and drew sketches. And when I exported .... I WAS IN HORRIBLE. I SAW COMPRESSIBLE PICTURES. Since then, I'm afraid of experiments.
Do you understand these strange things? Take a look. With them it is impossible to work after such exports.
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by D.T. Nethery » 16 Mar 2018, 16:45

Animationriver wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 14:10
I look a bit stupid, trying to get a very accurate answer to my questions. And thank you for your patience. In one day I decided to make a storyboard. My operator said that he will shoot 4K Anamorphic. I chose this format and drew sketches. And when I exported .... I WAS IN HORRIBLE. I SAW COMPRESSIBLE PICTURES. Since then, I'm afraid of experiments.
Do you understand these strange things? Take a look. With them it is impossible to work after such exports.


Your project is currently at the pixel dimensions of 4096 x 2034 , which is 16:9 aspect ratio . Your screen shot said:

"I need 16:9 for YouTube . HDTV . Display now 4096 x 2304 "
16-9_aspect_4096x2304.jpg

So if I am understanding , you want to downscale your 4096 x 2034 (16:9 aspect ratio) project to 1920 x 1080 (16:9 aspect ratio) to upload to YouTube, is that correct ?

Export like this:

1.) your original project , 4096 x 2034 (16:9 aspect ratio -
Original Project size 4096x2304_16-9_aspect.jpg

2.) In Export window Convert to HDTV 1080p (1920 x 1080 , which is also 16:9 aspect ratio)
with these settings:
Export_4K_project_to_1920x1080.jpg
Export_4K_project_to_1920x1080.jpg (84.93 KiB) Viewed 1292 times

3.) which results in this movie , 1920 x 1080 , 16:9 aspect ratio -
Exported_Movie_1920x1080.jpg
-----

I'm not sure how you got the result shown in your second image , where the aspect ratio is distorted (squashed) -
distorted aspect ratio.jpg
but I think if you use these Export settings it should work properly :

Export_4K_project_to_1920x1080.jpg
Export_4K_project_to_1920x1080.jpg (84.93 KiB) Viewed 1292 times

-----

Here's a useful guide to different aspect ratios and pixel resolutions that are industry standard :

https://www.unravel.com.au/aspect-ratio-cheat-sheet


.
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by Animationriver » 16 Mar 2018, 19:12

"So if I am understanding , you want to downscale your 4096 x 2034 (16:9 aspect ratio) project to 1920 x 1080 (16:9 aspect ratio) to upload to YouTube, is that correct ? "
No!) Thanks.

My task is to pass the project in 4k.
But I do not understand completely and to the very end. How to do it correctly. So that the customer who does not understand anything in 4k. In the final - I was very pleased. It is necessary to get several files. In all types of 4k formats. But as a result of output, the files look so terrible that they look.
I want to get a standard. But there are a lot of them and I'm confused.
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by D.T. Nethery » 16 Mar 2018, 20:00

Animationriver wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 19:12
"So if I am understanding , you want to downscale your 4096 x 2034 (16:9 aspect ratio) project to 1920 x 1080 (16:9 aspect ratio) to upload to YouTube, is that correct ? "


No! ) Thanks.
Ok, it seems that I don't understand the issue ... :oops: It seemed from what you said earlier that you wanted to make the 4K size file "comfortable" to upload to YouTube , which I took to mean you wanted to downscale it to HD resolution of 1920 x 1080 to make it faster to upload and stream on YouTube . But that's not it ...
My task is to pass the project in 4k.
But I do not understand completely and to the very end. How to do it correctly. So that the customer who does not understand anything in 4k.

In the final - I was very pleased. It is necessary to get several files. In all types of 4k formats. But as a result of output, the files look so terrible that they look.
I want to get a standard. But there are a lot of them and I'm confused.
Let me try again to see if I can understand what you want to do:

You have a 4K project sized at 4096 x 2034 (16:9 aspect ratio) and you want to upload it to YouTube , or provide it to your client , at the same 4K size of 4096 x 2034 , but when you export it to a movie the results don't look good compared to the original in TVPaint , is that the problem ?
I want to get a standard. But there are a lot of them and I'm confused.
Did you have a look at the article I linked earlier ? -- https://www.unravel.com.au/aspect-ratio-cheat-sheet
That has a list of standard aspect ratios and pixel dimensions.

As you have it now your project size of 4096 x 2034 is standard 4K 16:9 aspect ratio . If the client wants the files delivered in 16:9 aspect ratio , then it seems you have the correct aspect ratio.

But in one of your other posts you wrote:
My operator said that he will shoot 4K Anamorphic.
My understanding of the term "anamorphic" with regards to film aspect ratio is that it means a wide-screen aspect ratio of 2.39:1 (sometimes rounded up to 2.40:1 ) , which is occasionally also referred to as 2.35:1 (I've seen all three of those numbers -- 2.35:1 , 2.39:1 , 2.40:1 -- referred to as "anamorphic" or "cinemascope" ) , compared to 1.77:1 (16:9) aspect ratio. So it would seem you should ask the other person you are working with to specify the anamorphic aspect ratio being used , so you can set up your TVPaint project files with the exact same aspect ratio.
Aspect Ratios compared.jpg

As to the image quality issue when you export it to a .mov, I do not know what may be the cause of that . Can you show an example (screen shot of the TVPaint project side by side with the exported movie ) ? If you're exporting with FFMpeg, did you try the first option of 'Lossless' (equivalent to Apple Animation) or the third option 'Compressed RGB-RGBA' (equivalent to Apple ProRes 4444) ? I think either the first option or the third option will give superior results, whereas the middle option Compressed RGB (MPEG-4) is lower quality .
Screen Shot 2018-03-16 at 3.36.41 PM.jpg

------

I found a 4K resolution image to load into TVPaint, then exported it with FFMpeg Compressed-RGB (MPEG-4) and exported it with FFMpeg Compressed RGB-RGBA (ProRes) to compare to two. (in the original .mov files the MPEG-4 version is 39.2 MB and the ProRes version is 405.7 MB , so there is quite a difference in terms of the amount of data in the .mov file with MPEG-4 compared to ProRes)

Here they are:

FFMpeg Compressed-RGB (MPEG-4) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av74qGaZ5f4



FFMpeg Compressed RGB-RGBA (ProRes) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFfZwXDoI1s



They look similar on YouTube played in Full Screen mode , but in the original .mov files the ProRes version is better , but the MPEG-4 version is not horrible.
I'm wondering where the image degradation is coming in to yours when you export it to a .mov ?
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by Animationriver » 16 Mar 2018, 21:57

4k ---- final...squash pictures is normal? or bag? :D
When I talked about the terrible result. I was referring to this effect in the final.

DO YOU LOOK IN VIDEO FILE
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______)00003.jpg
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by slowtiger » 16 Mar 2018, 22:55

Your client needs to be really specific about what he wants.

Aspect ratio - 16:9.
Usually we do this ratio with some HD format, like FullHD 1920 x 1080, or 720p = 1280 x 720, or UHD = 3840 x 2160. All these formats use square pixels. In TVP, this is indicated in the field "Pixel Aspect Ratio" = 1.000 - this is a square pixel.

Usually we deliver exactly in these dimensions, since they are established broadcast standards. The digital TV of today always uses square pixels.

For older TV systems like PAL (768 x 576) with its 4:3 aspect ratio there was a solution to store a 16:9 image with the same amount of pixels, it used rectangular pixels which were wider than high. This can be done in TVP by changing "Pixel Aspect Ratio" to something else than 1.000. But this usually isn't something you have to bother about, you deliver in HD, not in PAL.

The term "anamorphotic" should only be used when recording on analogue film. In this fashion, you work with rectangular pixels - your TVP project will look normal to you - but the exported file shows a distortion. This distorted image will berecorded onto 35mm film. and when this film is projected through an anamorphotic lense, you'll get the correct view again. Why is this done? To record an aspect ratio of 1:2.25 or similar on a piece of film which usually can only hold 1:1.33 or 1:1.66.

Fortunately in TVP you can convert a wrong format to a correct pixel aspect ratio.
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by Animationriver » 16 Mar 2018, 23:15

slowtiger wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 22:55
Your client needs to be really specific about what he wants.

Aspect ratio - 16:9.
Usually we do this ratio with some HD format, like FullHD 1920 x 1080, or 720p = 1280 x 720, or UHD = 3840 x 2160. All these formats use square pixels. In TVP, this is indicated in the field "Pixel Aspect Ratio" = 1.000 - this is a square pixel.

Usually we deliver exactly in these dimensions, since they are established broadcast standards. The digital TV of today always uses square pixels.

For older TV systems like PAL (768 x 576) with its 4:3 aspect ratio there was a solution to store a 16:9 image with the same amount of pixels, it used rectangular pixels which were wider than high. This can be done in TVP by changing "Pixel Aspect Ratio" to something else than 1.000. But this usually isn't something you have to bother about, you deliver in HD, not in PAL.

The term "anamorphotic" should only be used when recording on analogue film. In this fashion, you work with rectangular pixels - your TVP project will look normal to you - but the exported file shows a distortion. This distorted image will berecorded onto 35mm film. and when this film is projected through an anamorphotic lense, you'll get the correct view again. Why is this done? To record an aspect ratio of 1:2.25 or similar on a piece of film which usually can only hold 1:1.33 or 1:1.66.

Fortunately in TVP you can convert a wrong format to a correct pixel aspect ratio.
ОК!
Thanks! !!! !
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Re: 4K EXPORT to .mov

Post by D.T. Nethery » 17 Mar 2018, 01:16

Animationriver wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 21:57
4k ---- final...squash pictures is normal? or bag? :D
When I talked about the terrible result. I was referring to this effect in the final.

DO YOU LOOK IN VIDEO FILE
Ok, now I see the problem as I am looking at the video you uploaded.

When you created the 4K Anamorphic project from the 4K presets the pixel aspect ratio was set to 0.500 , not 1.000 .
aspect ratio should be 1.000 not 0.500.jpg
aspect ratio should be 1.000 not 0.500.jpg (44.09 KiB) Viewed 1260 times
However, when you imported your images (4096 x 2304) , those images had a square pixel aspect ratio of 1.000 .
Screen Shot 2018-03-16 at 8.57.28 PM.jpg
Then when you exported it shows a pixel aspect ratio of 2.000 (!) , but to render a normally proportioned image it should be 1.000 square pixel aspect ratio.
Pixel Aspect Ratio should be 1.000 [square].jpg
So, to avoid the "squashed" image, create a custom size widescreen project (get the client to specify the exact dimensions) , something like 4096 x 1714 (which would be 2.39:1 "Cinemascope" widescreen aspect ratio) with 1.000 (square) pixel aspect ratio. Then when you export it make sure the pixel aspect ratio is also set to 1.000 .
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